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Assuming it has always been around is proof of limited thinking and narrow mindedness if you ask me.



Yes! Thank you! You've just inadvertently said exactly what I've been trying to say all along. [Adding time to a God who created time] is proof of limited thinking and narrow mindedness if you ask me. I just wouldn't have been so harsh about it.

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Time doesn't require a creation,



Ok. So nothing exists for all eternity because there is no time. Then somewhere in this eternity, time comes into existence. Let's examine the logic of this problem.

Time doesn't exist, neither does matter, or space. All of these things were created sometime just slightly before the big bang. But if time doesn't exist then automatically that means nothing exists for eternity (matter and space have to be created at the same time as time). There's no two ways around this. Nothing exists eternally (that's a long time), but then within the eternal nothingness (which includes no time) time comes into existence. How can time not exist for eternity, and still exist as we comprehend it? By the very nature of time not existing at any given point before time, it cannot exist. In fact, its logically impossible to even entertain the idea.

Time is eternal? Then that sucks because thermodynamics would dictate that the universe became useless to life an eternity ago. Yet here we are. Not to mention that eternal time still explains nothing.

You can't use the excuse that the universe goes through phases. Heat (the thermodynamic kind) came into being an eternity ago along with time (in other words it was eternal). But that means that no matter how far back in time you go, thermodynamics has caused the universe to run out of 'juice'. We can never be in any stage other than lifelessness in this universe if time is eternal. We missed the 'living' stage of the universe infinity ago. In fact, if we travelled back a trillion years and then stopped for a second, and travelled back a trillion years over and over again, even if we were immortal and could do this as long as we wanted to...we could never go back in time far enough to reach a point in which the universe was inhabitable because there's still an infinite amount of time before that for heat to become 'evenly distributed', and thus life cannot exist.

In fact, this just goes to show that you can't apply infinity to the physical universe without running into far too many problems that can't be solved. Infinity only exists in math.

Time was created.

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space doesn't need a creation either, can there be something like anti-space or no-space?



No, nor would that have anything to do with space being created. However, where does space come from. Does it just like to pop up out of nothing? At what point does no space at all (that means no room for anything, nothing blocking it, nothing at all) at what point does no space become space? How does this happen?

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As for matter, if there's time and space and things can spontaniously come into existence simply because they can (no cause or no visible or provable cause), then I still don't see a reason for any God to be involved in the process.



Well, then given the hypothetical and inevitable nothingness before there was matter we know scientifically that matter cannot come into existence. In our physical universe, nothing begets nothing. Its only the truth within the confines of our universe.

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It's not obvious at all unlike you've stated. How did God create matter? Did he clap his hands and voíla, there you go the universe was born? A theory involving a God has the same problem, creating matter from nothing, assuming there was nothing before there was something.



Again, you're ignoring the obvious conclusion that God is in no way shape or form, part of this universe. The contradiction lies in your camp only. If I'm inside the watch, I don't say the watchmaker didn't make it, just because anything outside the watch would have to be made out of watch parts. In fact, the creator outside the watch is very different from the watch. He has nothing to do with it, except that he created it.

We don't specifically know God's nature, because he doesn't have a nature in a sense. We do know the nature of the universe, and we do know that it inevitably has a creator. I'm going to keep on finding ways to phrase this until you can finally understand which peice of the puzzle you're missing here. Because there's something right in front of your eyes that you're JUST missing. But we'll get there together. Love is patient, after all.

I don't think its a coincidence that whenever you try to 'patronize' me and come up with a model of God, it always includes something physical (you contradict yourself). As if it bears any relevance to God. You literally cannot even give God the correct attributes. How could God have existed forever? That's putting time on Him, which is irrelevant. The answer is he hasn't existed forever, because there is no time from his perspective. Its illogical to ask the question in the first place.

How is he living in some dark room? Now you're putting space on God. Which he would obviously not be confined to. Logically, the creator of space, would not be living in space to begin with. It would be absolutely impossible. So why can't you consider this? How can he create something that he would have to live in, in the first place?

You (maybe not you specifically, but I mean in general atheists) give Him human characteristics, like a beard, and say that He's just fuming like some child with a temper tantrum. I don't think these irrational, illogical views are a coincidence. They obviously would have nothing to do with God, but people can't help but associate them with God because they're so stuck thinking only in terms of the universe. Believe me, the universe is great. I think a better understanding of the universe was part of God's plan for us. But when you become trapped in that understanding, and start thinking that there can be nothing else except this universe (despite obvious scientific contradictions), I think you've left the realm of reason. Surely, whether or not you believe in God, you should be able to consider what God would be like if he exists. Why then does it seem impossible for any of you to do that? That isn't meant to be a leading question. I believe beyond the shadow of a doubt that He does exist. Yet I'm able to imagine what it would be like if he didn't. I have to do it every time I talk to you guys or we would never be able to have a debate.

Anyway, this is a long post, and I'm tired and need sleep. Good night.

Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 06/02/06 06:34.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."