Very good, thank you for restoring my faith some argumentative viability on this board. I think basically that anyone who replies to these threads with purely derogatory statements is a weak-willed loser to be perfectly blunt, and I am just generally speaking with no particular person in mind. We all have the tendency to get angry but anger is really just a manifestation of of an inability to cope with a situation IMHO.

So, very good, back to the facts. Note that I havent read Spetner's book, but I have heard these arguments on both sides before.

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By the same token, evolution has been through millions of intersections. The chances of us arriving at this particular stage in our evolution would have been impossible to predict at the beginning. Now that we have arrived at our current location, statistics are useless in telling us if we could have gotten here through evolution. But we had to be somewhere. It just happens to be here


I understand this point, but it is also a logical fallacy which begins with an assumption that evolution occured. When you begin with an argument that your theory of evolution happened then of course any statistics which calculate the probability of that occurence are useless. However evolution is the whole subject being debated here. Let me carry the analogy out further to demonstrate:

If I am in Akron it is useless to try to figure out the probabilities which got me there. I agree with that fully. 100%.

Yet you are not in Akron that is the whole subject under debate. Therefore his argument is a logical fallacy.



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Dr Spetner is forced to admit that there is both direct and indirect evidence for evolution. Even as he stands at the brink of declaring evolution to be a statistical impossibility, he steps back and acknowledges its truth



I didnt read the book and I dont agree with the ID crowd with their "guided evolution" fallacy. But it seems as if your guy has a good point here as far as ID'ers go, but not according to me because I dont acknowledge either direct nor indirect evidence for evolution.

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The progress of evolution is not random at all. The genetic mutation and variation due to sexual reproduction may be random


This statement is idiotic. In the first statement he says evolution is not random at all and in the second sentence he says that "...variation due to sexual reproduction may be random

So that is ridiculous, and I see it in both camps, for evolution AND creation. The alleged process is neither random nor directed, it is both. So creationists are entirely correct when we say that genetic information arises by chance. It indeed arises by chance mutation. It is selected by other processes.

This is where some evolutionists on this board just_dont_get_it, they continue to claim that evolution does not arise by chance belieing the fact that they just dont know their own theory. Mutation absolutely arises by chance. This is where you need to be honest with yourself and others. You are no scientist and you will never be one if you cannot grasp this so please dont claim an appeal to science.

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I think most judges and juries would have little problems figuring out who's right actually and who's back paddling, using wrong arguments is misinformed about certain facts and sometimes even ignorant.


What any judge needs is evidence and you cannot provide evidence. If you say I am ignorant or backpaddling that is not enough evidence without proofs. Yet I am giving the judge one peice after another in a steady stream and all you guys do is ignore it. Why? Because you cannot admit when your wrong. The precise reason why you cannot accept a God, because that would mean admission of guilt. You are basically so stuck on yourself that you cannot ever foresee yourself being wrong. However, this type of ignorance is exactly what will assure that you will never do anything substantially in science because you have no ability to learn. Learning involves throwing out what you currently know to replace it with things that you did not know. The quicker you can learn, the quicker you can adapt and overcome. Think about it. This is my general opinion of some people, I am definitely not saying Phemox or anyone specifically. I think that our ability to learn and the speed in which we learn really is the definition of intelligence.