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Poster Ganderoleg Offline
Posted 03/22/10 01:48
Hello all,

I am sure that some of you, that actively participated in George Dan Pirvu's contest for the best game design document in order to create the community game, find this post in showcase to be old news grin The reason why I'm posting(or better re-vitalizing) Sorcerers project is because I still haven't gave up on this idea and also still haven't found why this project received so little attention when brought to contest for voting.

I must admit that in reasonable future, after the completion of Untitled Platformer & Blade Of Power, I attend to continue work on this project with Dimme and most probably try to find interested programmer/programmers to do the game's code and, perhaps, online support if project begins to move in that direction.

So if I'm to pursue this thing in reasonable future I wanted to find out what are exactly the most problematic aspects of this project.

For those that are not interested in reading the entire game design document here is a short abstract of the game's concept:
Click to reveal..
Sorcerers is a 3D, turn-based, room-based, quick-strategy game that puts you in the role of a wizard whose goal is to gain dominance over three other wizards in the various temples and castles.
It combines turn-based, time-limited, full 3D movement through level together with turn-based, static battle system. The players turns are limited to one minute while the battle-turns are not limited nor included in one-minute playing-turn.
Wizards must plant Manna & Guardian rods during their turn in order to enhance their manna-count or create the Guardian(warrior) to protect their rooms. Manna is important for various upgrades in strength, spells & speed of the Wizard, his disciple & his Guardians.

...and here are things that are noted & considered to be gameplay-killers & also gameplay enhancement suggestions:
Click to reveal..
01. Waiting for your turn can last up to three minutes without battles, or much longer with battles.
02. Game has no story or the story must be somehow relevant to the gameplay in order for game to be more then just a pointless skirmish.
03. Hot-seat is to much retro for 1st person game.
04. Level-design should be directed toward avoiding the repetitiveness
05. Battle attack-dynamic should speed up, each attack shouldn't last more then 3 seconds
06. There should be more spells & spell-branch specializing for all characters
07. Sorcerer should be able to choose/carry various equipment
08. Sorcerer should be able to choose among different battle companions
09. Battle-system should be more straightforward, simpler & clearer to avoid confusion
10. The interaction between wizard and enemies during the battle should be more concrete.
11. Exploration parts should be more interesting, with secret areas & rooms.
12. Rod-plantings should be quicker.
13. Levels should also have big rooms(rooms should vary in scale).
14. HUD, battle statistics & texts should be simpler & more visual, and their display should be optional.

I would appreciate any feedback on how to enhance the gameplay of this project without deconstructing the main aspects: turn-based play & static-battle system.

SORCERERS 3D Showcase Application can be downloaded using this link:

Dimensions 1280x960
Size 197.68 KB

#316166 - 03/22/10 03:54 Re: Sorcerers ***** [Re: Ganderoleg]
roflmaster Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/05/10
Posts: 53
Hmmm...looks impressive..good luck
3D Modeler & 2D Artist

#316167 - 03/22/10 03:57 Re: Sorcerers [Re: roflmaster]
roflmaster Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/05/10
Posts: 53
The only problem is that it seems like it could get repetative....might want to consider puting a little variety in the enviroments
3D Modeler & 2D Artist

#316186 - 03/22/10 10:17 Re: Sorcerers [Re: roflmaster]
Germanunkol Offline

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 2640
Loc: Earth
I don't like the round-based-concept.
Basically, I don't mind round-based (heros of the might and magic, Total-War series), but here's it's just too slow and, as (also) mentioned, too repetitive from what I saw in the demo. I hated those gameboy-pokemon battles where each player pulls one attack, then it's the next player's turn and so on... I just got bored inbetween.

If you want lots of people to play it, make it quicker. Much quicker. 5 seconds for an attack is already too long for my taste. See, the only challange atm is (from what I remember) to choose the right attacks. In the demo it doesn't matter yet, which attack you use (I think), but later on, the only challenge migth be choosing the right attacks for the right enemies. You don't have to aim, you don't have to protect yourself (except maybe by using potions/counterattacks/defending). How much damage you do is, to some part, random (don't hit me if I'm wrong, it's been some time since I played it, and I'm at work so I can't download it again here), so in the end much of whether you win the game or not does not depend on skill, but on chance (correct me if I'm wrong) and that doesn't leave the player to feel good when he wins and makes him frustrated if he loses.
I do realise there's the one-minute-run part inbetween which influences how strong you'll be in the fight, and that's definitely a step in the right direction. I believe you need more choosing in there. Let the player choose:
-which class of spells he specializes in
-where he goes next
-what armor he wants to wear
-what companions he can call into the fight (monsters/friendly wizards/conjured entities)
Then you may want to think about why the player wants a commpanion. If it's round based, and every player has one spell he can do, then what difference is there between a 1 on 1 battle and a 2 on 2 battle? The only difference it made to me was that a 2 on 2 takes longer...

Obviously, the textures are great and the level design is good. I think what it really needs is more interesting lighting. I'd use either white light coming in through windows or orangy/flickering light from torches, not white light overall.
Also, contrast in lighting: the hole thingy with the spikes on the last screen would look much more dangerous if there was no light at the bottom.

Story's been mentioned already: I didn't understand it, really.

Also, the wizards don't look characteristic enough to me. They're all the same (that's just WIP I asume?) which confused me a lot. The panels are all the same for each of the 4 combatants. Make mine different, and make the friendly wizard's different. All of them the same red won't help the player see who is who. I didn't understand why I should fight them, really. I mean, they look just like me, so they're friendly, right? I don't know what my goal was. Why do I need to get past them? Is anything in the castle trying to kill me?

Does this help as feedback?
I'll be interested to see where this goes!
~"I never let school interfere with my education"~
-Mark Twain

#316196 - 03/22/10 11:25 Re: Sorcerers [Re: Ganderoleg]
William Offline

Registered: 08/22/01
Posts: 2320
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Looks cool! Keep it up. laugh
Check out Silas.

Hear my band Finding Fire -

Daily dev updates -

#316223 - 03/22/10 16:27 Re: Sorcerers [Re: William]
Ganderoleg Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/30/06
Posts: 470
Loc: Balkan
Thank you all for nice comments and feedback smile

Yes the repetitiveness is one of the problems for sure but the levels are going to be modular, so the room-order will always be different. That could make it little less noticeable.

This is very good feedback- thanx smile
I totally agree with quicker battle system & attack specialties. Three seconds would be, I think, more then enough when it comes to attack/defense actions.

As for characters specialties, I was thinking that this could be fixed if the upgrade system would go in the direction that is based on the upgrade system similar to the one in Disciples II/Screenshot. The only differences would be that, in this project, there won't be any structure building and experience won't play important role since all upgrades would be obtained by the use of Manna.

As for character models- everything in the demo is total wip grin I know I wrote in GDD that wizards & their disciples can use only two models with different colors/symbols scheme but that is just the bottom line. The optimal concept would be that they have different designs to match different battle specialties- black wizard/black-magic based spells, red wizard/fire-magic based spells...

But I must say that I don't completely agree with your view of the battle concept- in my opinion chance should play an important role. Don't get me wrong, chance shouldn't completely minimize the upgrade system but it should make him not-to-much reliable. Even if you have a wizard with superior attack skills and disciple with upgraded defense abilities that shouldn't automatically mean that you will win the battle- wrong choice of skills for the currant battle or plain luck of the opponent could turn things around.

Thanx- this project will have to wait at least until the community game Untitled Platformer is finished but we(Dimme & me) do intend to continue development in reasonable future and, also, try to find interested programmer so that I can focus only on game's visual segments.

#316293 - 03/23/10 02:08 Re: Sorcerers [Re: Ganderoleg]
3dworld Offline

Registered: 09/09/07
Posts: 173
Loc: USA, Florida
I think is pretty cool. The graphics are really professional. Great dude, I hope you finish the game. The only there I really think that you should work a little more is in the battle system because is a little confusing.

Great job men.
No matter what people tell you,  words and ideas can change the world.

#316356 - 03/23/10 16:31 Re: Sorcerers [Re: 3dworld]
Ganderoleg Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/30/06
Posts: 470
Loc: Balkan
Thanx smile I added your feedback in the gameplay-killer list.
With Roflmaster's & Germanunkol's feedbacks we now have 9 gameplay enhancement suggestions.
>>Demos free3DModels Tutorials<<
>>>>>>> by Pavle Nikolic <<<<<<<

#316404 - 03/23/10 21:39 Re: Sorcerers [Re: Ganderoleg]
ratchet Offline

Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 2488
I tried the demo. The game is already very good looking and have good potential laugh

-For battles you can do some MMO style gameplay , you click an ennemy and use different powers depending on you class.
Each power must recharge

-Another sytem would be some Oblivion real time combat where you are in front of ennemies and can't move.
Perhaps you could add some dodge capabilities, counter or
flee from combat like in FF games ?
For real time : a warrior would attack each 2 seconds, and you could strike lot more in real time.
And defend with a shield with left mouse like in oblivion or similar to super punch out ! Some arcade game mixed with RPG elements.

For gameplay you could od 3D FPS platformer also, with some jump use to discover secrets or go to other parts.

- Make ennemies avoidable , you go on a room , but if you don't touch them or if they don't approach you , there is no combat. Like in FF13 , give some freedom.

The game is looking very good already so i won't talk about all the things i like laugh !
Let's talk what i don't like instead to improve :
-Remove the counter of turns during exploration it is useless
-When plating with "P" this is too slow we msut watch the things grow up instead of exploring or playing !
Make them more fast to get up or simply let the player do
what he wants once "P" pressed, don't force it to watch !
- Too much specular on walls and objects (weapons could have specular only on some parts)
- The ennemis are too dark : modelise or find good models on internet and bring some colors
-each different ennemie should have specific and good animations when attacking or been hit
- Some ennemies should have an agressive or defensive stylised pose or guard instead of being like a robot standing in front !
- Create powerfull magic effects, work them ,don't make simple basic particles !
Simply watch this video :
combat magic effects
- the dungeon is very tiny and tight, make bigger corridors , longer and larger , for the player to feel more liberty.
Why not some rooms with a ceiling very hight

On the HUD :
All the stats and text take place and are confusing.
Drop all that !
Just put life bar, mana or rage bar also !
You could view detailled caracteristics in another screen like. you don't need to see them in the heat of action laugh
Lokk at World Of Warcraft, there are only life bar and mana on ennemies , and bad or good effects under these bars !
Be inspired, make combat clear laugh

Keep it up, polish it, make it action (mixed with RPG)
and you'll have a winner game !

Edited by ratchet (03/23/10 21:49)

#316426 - 03/24/10 02:45 Re: Sorcerers [Re: ratchet]
roflmaster Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/05/10
Posts: 53
sweet dude sounds cool
3D Modeler & 2D Artist

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