Well, then let's start at the origin, which I figure would be a good place. My first refutation to your argument (excluding evolution for now) will be that the early molecules for life are actually hindered by energy from the sun. The sun's energy (from what I understand ultraviolet light specifically) tends to break them down, reverting them to simpler molecules.

An even bigger hindrance to any workaround would be that you're not talking about overcoming thermodynamics once, but probably many many times as you 'stack' the molecules just right to finally make the first cell. As you and I both know, each of these levels of 'stacking' will organize heat/energy, making it more likely that the stack will 'fall over'. I'm wondering, because in reading evolutionist ramblings (on other websites) about this topic, no explanation has been given that makes scientific sense. I certainly could read evolutionist websites, but apparently you've seen something that I haven't. I'm hoping we can get some progressive understanding acheived, then.

Evolutionists like to talk about the sun, but the sun plastering energy all over everything is only part of the picture. It damages already created cells for one thing (let alone cells trying to create themselves). However, in general architecture, car paint, etc are all damaged by the sun's energy.

What plants do with the sun's energy (which is more relevant to the descent with modification aspect of this discussion) does little to explain how simple molecules ('simple' like those necessary to construct life) are expected to overcome the laws of thermodynamics.

@Irish: Life was supposed to begin in water. Ultraviolet rays don't penetrate water that is deeper than a few meters. And they have nothing to do with thermodynamics.

When molecules break down, they release heat/energy. So when something breaks a molecule down, it is in fact because of thermodynamics. Ultraviolet rays are created because of thermodynamics, and they destroy things because of thermodynamics.

You can't escape thermodynamics in the water, because of hydrolosis. The oxygen in the water will pull the molecules apart. This releases any organized heat in whatever pre-life molecules MAY exist in the water.

I think God purposely designed the universe to make it obvious we need Him to start life.

Wow. I've seldom seen so many errors in so small a post, so we need to set some basic physics facts straight.

First, your molecules don't "release heat/energy" by breaking down. On the contrary, they consume energy for breaking. Otherwise they'd break down immediately without any ultraviolet rays.

Second, energy is not the same as heat. In fact most of thermodynamics deals with the difference between energy and heat.

Third, ultraviolet rays are not "created because of thermodynamics", they are created by electron transitions which are described by quantum mechanics. There's no thermodynamics involved.

Forth, thermodynamics is a statistical science. It does not tell you anything about the synthesis or breakdown of single molecules. Molecule behavior and chemical reactions are governed by electrodynamics and quantum mechanics. Thermodynamics however describes the statistical behavior of particle ensembles, normally in the magnitude of 10^23 particles (Avogadro constant) or above.

Fifth, "oxygen in water" is produced by plants and algae. And at the time of abiogenesis obviously there weren't any plants and algae and thus no oxygen in the atmosphere or in water.

And sixth, as you are now permanently mentioning thermodynamics, I think it's time for your announced thermodynamics argument or lesson. Because I fail to see at the moment what thermodynamics has to do with our discussion at all.

I've never seen so many errors in such a small post myself either.

Maybe I used the wrong diction, but technically I wasn't wrong.

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First, your molecules don't "release heat/energy" by breaking down.

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When these molecules come together, they organize heat. Heat doesn't like to be organized. But as long as I've used the word Heat, let me explain I'm not talking about temperature. Thermodynamics says heat flows from a hot place to a cold place. All action, light, etc in our universe is part of this heat flow. That's why scientists talk about a dark, motionless universe, sometime in our future. Light has a more specific scientific cause, but its produced in accordance with thermodynamics.

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Thermodynamics is, from an engineer’s point of view, the ultimate science. It explains the operation of the entire natural universe. That is what makes the study of thermodynamics so interesting, exciting, and relevant

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Second, energy is not the same as heat. In fact most of thermodynamics deals with the difference between energy and heat.

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Heat is a form of energy, like kinetic energy, potential energy, and chemical energy, etc etc.

Again, I'm not talking about temperature. Temperature does rise the more you heat something, but temperature is very different.

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You can melt more ice with 1,000 gallons of 90 degree (F) water than 1 teaspoon of 200 degree (F) water. That is because there is more heat in 1,000 gallons of 90 degree water than there is in 1 teaspoon of 200 degree water. Just because the teaspoon is hotter, it doesn’t mean that it contains more heat than all those gallons of cooler water.

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Third, ultraviolet rays are not "created because of thermodynamics",

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Bad choice of words. Ultraviolet rays are the result of the inefficiency of the work being done in stars. If stars were 100% 'efficient' they would produce no light, heat, or what have you. So its still part of thermodynamics.

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Fifth, "oxygen in water" is produced by plants and algae. And at the time of abiogenesis obviously there weren't any plants and algae and thus no oxygen in the atmosphere or in water.

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So water was just H2 for a while? Also, I thought part of the theory was that water was created by valcanoes, by combining oxygen and hydrogen before spewing steam into the air.

I'm talking about the oxygen in the H20 molecule. Or the O, if you will.

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And sixth, as you are now permanently mentioning thermodynamics, I think it's time for your announced thermodynamics argument or lesson. Because I fail to see at the moment what thermodynamics has to do with our discussion at all.

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You don't see what thermodynamics has to do with life? So then the first form of life didn't have to worry about being destroyed by the disorganization of heat? Why are they trying to find out how clay could have kept the original molecules from breaking down, then?

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When these molecules come together, they organize heat. Heat doesn't like to be organized.

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Hmm. I know what heat is and what organizing is, but admit that I have no idea what you mean with "molecules organize heat". Do you mean entropy? If you've got this from some website, would you post the link? I can then look it up to learn at least what they mean.

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Ultraviolet rays are the result of the inefficiency of the work being done in stars. If stars were 100% 'efficient' they would produce no light, heat, or what have you. So its still part of thermodynamics.

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Consider my eyebrows accordingly raised. Stars do hydrogen fusion. This is a very efficient process - in fact the most efficient possible in that temperature/pressure range. And what has efficiency to do with UV rays? Maybe you misunderstood something? Can you also post the link to the source of that information?

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So water was just H2 for a while? Also, I thought part of the theory was that water was created by valcanoes, by combining oxygen and hydrogen before spewing steam into the air.
I'm talking about the oxygen in the H20 molecule. Or the O, if you will.

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Ah, I see. You were just confusing atoms with molecules. The "Oxygen in water" that is dangerous for molecules is not the O atom in H2O. It is the O2 (oxygen) molecule dissolved in H2O (water).

O2 is the oxygen gas in today's atmosphere and in the ocean. It can easily break up into two O atoms. This is the reason why oxygen tends to attack molecules by binding its O atoms at them. This is a potential exothermic process: it can indeed "release energy" unlike your previously mentioned breaking up molecules by UV rays.

H2O however is not giving up it's O atom unless you apply external energy, like an electric field. Thus, water has normally no negative effect on molecules. It can not prevent the forming of proteins. This is just the reason why water is so important for life and why we're consisting mainly of water.

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You don't see what thermodynamics has to do with life? So then the first form of life didn't have to worry about being destroyed by the disorganization of heat? Why are they trying to find out how clay could have kept the original molecules from breaking down, then?

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No, I just wanted you to finally post your long-announced lesson why thermodynamics prevented the beginning of life. BTW I am not insisting on thermodynamics - you may post any new reasons why you think life could not have begun.

But I fear that when we're now continue arguing about UV rays, processes in stars, atoms and molecules etc. it's not much fun anymore. You lack knowledge in that area, which is ok, but trying to defend your statements is beginning to get a little ridiculous. Let's better go back to life and biology.

I can't get to this right now, because I have to work soon. However, I would look up the definition of hydrolysis if I were you because defending the idea that the oxygen in water is harmless is starting to get a little ridiculous.

hydro-water; liquid

hydrolysis-Decomposition of a chemical compound by reaction with water

It didn't say reaction with atmosphere absorbed in water, but with water.

You were right that the atmosphere's 02 is also very destructive. Oxygen is one of the most corrosive things on earth. Which is why there really is no safe haven for early life. Water is no exception.

Just a quick note as I've seen you answered:

Hydrolysis is a chemical reaction that splits molecules and binds OH groups from water to molecule rests or metal ions. It occurs in water, but is caused by acids or enzymes. It has nothing to do whatsoever with "oxygen in water" or with any other part of our discussion.

Looking forward to your further answers.

I'm short on time again, but I'll leave with this:

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It can be argued that the most crucial challenge unanswered by this theory is how the relatively simple organic building blocks polymerise and form more complex structures, interacting in consistent ways to form a protocell. For example, in an aqueous environment hydrolysis of oligomers/polymers into their constituent monomers would be favored over the condensation of individual monomers into polymers. Also, the Miller experiment produces many substances that would undergo cross-reactions with the amino acids or terminate the peptide chain.

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Any other objections?

Hmm. I admit that I'm now confused. Hydrolysis in organic chemistry, as to my knowledge, is the mechanism used by enzymes for splitting polymeres. Do I understand right that now not thermodynamics, not oxygen, not UV rays, but enzymes killed the early peptids? What did the author of the quote assume about where those enzymes came from? Or what else caused the hydrolysis? Can you post the link to that page?