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Re: evolution vs creation [Re: Dan Silverman] #69131
05/16/06 00:59
05/16/06 00:59
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,236
San Diego, CA
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Marco_Grubert Offline
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Quote:

There are many scientists themselves that are indeed creation scientists:




It is telling that many of the people listed died over 100 years ago, some of them died before Darwin was even born. If scientists believed in creationism prior to 1900 I would not hold it against them. Anyway, here's Project Steve :
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/3697_the_list_2_16_2003.asp
Their signed statement is
Quote:

Evolution is a vital, well-supported, unifying principle of the biological sciences, and the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that all living things share a common ancestry. Although there are legitimate debates about the patterns and processes of evolution, there is no serious scientific doubt that evolution occurred or that natural selection is a major mechanism in its occurrence. It is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible for creationist pseudoscience, including but not limited to "intelligent design," to be introduced into the science curricula of our nation's public schools.




Re: evolution vs creation [Re: Marco_Grubert] #69132
05/16/06 01:07
05/16/06 01:07
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline
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Dan Silverman  Offline
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Quote:

It is telling that many of the people listed died over 100 years ago, some of them died before Darwin was even born. If scientists believed in creationism prior to 1900 I would not hold it against them.




Then perhaps this incomplete list would serve better, Marco:

Note: Individuals on this list must possess a doctorate in a science-related field.

* Dr. Paul Ackerman, Psychologist
* Dr. E. Theo Agard, Medical Physics
* Dr. James Allan, Geneticist
* Dr. Steve Austin, Geologist
* Dr. S.E. Aw, Biochemist
* Dr. Thomas Barnes, Physicist
* Dr. Geoff Barnard, Immunologist
* Dr. Don Batten, Plant physiologist, tropical fruit expert
* Dr. John Baumgardner, Electrical Engineering, Space Physicist, Geophysicist, expert in supercomputer modeling of plate tectonics
* Dr. Jerry Bergman, Psychologist
* Dr. Kimberly Berrine, Microbiology & Immunology
* Prof. Vladimir Betina, Microbiology, Biochemistry & Biology
* Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin, Biologist
* Dr. Andrew Bosanquet, Biology, Microbiology
* Edward A. Boudreaux, Theoretical Chemistry
* Dr. David R. Boylan, Chemical Engineer
* Prof. Linn E. Carothers, Associate Professor of Statistics
* Dr. David Catchpoole, Plant Physiologist (read his testimony)
* Prof. Sung-Do Cha, Physics
* Dr. Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics
* Dr. Choong-Kuk Chang, Genetic Engineering
* Prof. Jeun-Sik Chang, Aeronautical Engineering
* Dr. Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist (interview)
* Prof. Chung-Il Cho, Biology Education
* Dr. John M. Cimbala, Mechanical Engineering
* Dr. Harold Coffin, Palaeontologist
* Dr. Bob Compton, DVM
* Dr. Ken Cumming, Biologist
* Dr. Jack W. Cuozzo, Dentist
* Dr. William M. Curtis III, Th.D., Th.M., M.S., Aeronautics & Nuclear Physics
* Dr. Malcolm Cutchins, Aerospace Engineering
* Dr. Lionel Dahmer, Analytical Chemist
* Dr. Raymond V. Damadian, M.D., Pioneer of magnetic resonance imaging
* Dr. Chris Darnbrough, Biochemist
* Dr. Nancy M. Darrall, Botany
* Dr. Bryan Dawson, Mathematics
* Dr. Douglas Dean, Biological Chemistry
* Prof. Stephen W. Deckard, Assistant Professor of Education
* Dr. David A. DeWitt, Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience
* Dr. Don DeYoung, Astronomy, atmospheric physics, M.Div
* Dr. David Down, Field Archaeologist
* Dr. Geoff Downes, Creationist Plant Physiologist
* Dr. Ted Driggers, Operations research
* Robert H. Eckel, Medical Research
* Dr. André Eggen, Geneticist
* Dr. Dudley Eirich, Molecular Biologist
* Prof. Dennis L. Englin, Professor of Geophysics
* Prof. Danny Faulkner, Astronomy
* Prof. Carl B. Fliermans, Professor of Biology
* Prof. Dwain L. Ford, Organic Chemistry
* Prof. Robert H. Franks, Associate Professor of Biology
* Dr. Alan Galbraith, Watershed Science
* Dr. Paul Giem, Medical Research
* Dr. Maciej Giertych, Geneticist
* Dr. Duane Gish, Biochemist
* Dr. Werner Gitt, Information Scientist
* Dr. Warwick Glover, General Surgeon
* Dr. D.B. Gower, Biochemistry
* Dr. Dianne Grocott, Psychiatrist
* Dr. Stephen Grocott, Industrial Chemist
* Dr. Donald Hamann, Food Scientist
* Dr. Barry Harker, Philosopher
* Dr. Charles W. Harrison, Applied Physicist, Electromagnetics
* Dr. John Hartnett, Physicist and Cosmologist
* Dr. Mark Harwood, Satellite Communications
* Dr. George Hawke, Environmental Scientist
* Dr. Margaret Helder, Science Editor, Botanist
* Dr. Harold R. Henry, Engineer
* Dr. Jonathan Henry, Astronomy
* Dr. Joseph Henson, Entomologist
* Dr. Robert A. Herrmann, Professor of Mathematics, US Naval Academy
* Dr. Andrew Hodge, Head of the Cardiothoracic Surgical Service
* Dr. Kelly Hollowell, Molecular and Cellular Pharmacologist
* Dr. Ed Holroyd, III, Atmospheric Science
* Dr. Bob Hosken, Biochemistry
* Dr. George F. Howe, Botany
* Dr. Neil Huber, Physical Anthropologist
* Dr. Russell Humphreys, Physicist
* Dr. James A. Huggins, Professor and Chair, Department of Biology
* Evan Jamieson, Hydrometallurgy
* George T. Javor, Biochemistry
* Dr. Pierre Jerlström, Creationist Molecular Biologist
* Dr. Arthur Jones, Biology
* Dr. Jonathan W. Jones, Plastic Surgeon
* Dr. Raymond Jones, Agricultural Scientist
* Prof. Leonid Korochkin, Molecular Biology
* Dr. Valery Karpounin, Mathematical Sciences, Logics, Formal Logics
* Dr. Dean Kenyon, Biologist
* Prof. Gi-Tai Kim, Biology
* Prof. Harriet Kim, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jong-Bai Kim, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jung-Han Kim, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jung-Wook Kim, Environmental Science
* Prof. Kyoung-Rai Kim, Analytical Chemistry
* Prof. Kyoung-Tai Kim, Genetic Engineering
* Prof. Young-Gil Kim, Materials Science
* Prof. Young In Kim, Engineering
* Dr. John W. Klotz, Biologist
* Dr. Vladimir F. Kondalenko, Cytology/Cell Pathology
* Dr. Leonid Korochkin, M.D., Genetics, Molecular Biology, Neurobiology
* Dr. John K.G. Kramer, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jin-Hyouk Kwon, Physics
* Prof. Myung-Sang Kwon, Immunology
* Dr. John Leslie, Biochemist
* Prof. Lane P. Lester, Biologist, Genetics
* Dr. Jason Lisle, Astrophysicist
* Dr. Alan Love, Chemist
* Dr. Ian Macreadie, molecular biologist and microbiologist:
* Dr. John Marcus, Molecular Biologist
* Dr. George Marshall, Eye Disease Researcher
* Dr. Ralph Matthews, Radiation Chemist
* Dr. John McEwan, Chemist
* Prof. Andy McIntosh, Combustion theory, aerodynamics
* Dr. David Menton, Anatomist
* Dr. Angela Meyer, Creationist Plant Physiologist
* Dr. John Meyer, Physiologist
* Dr. Albert Mills, Animal Embryologist/Reproductive Physiologist
* Colin W. Mitchell, Geography
* Dr. John N. Moore, Science Educator
* Dr. John W. Moreland, Mechanical engineer and Dentist
* Dr. Arlton C. Murray, Paleontologist
* Dr. John D. Morris, Geologist
* Dr. Len Morris, Physiologist
* Dr. Graeme Mortimer, Geologist
* Stanley A. Mumma, Architectural Engineering
* Prof. Hee-Choon No, Nuclear Engineering
* Dr. Eric Norman, Biomedical researcher
* Dr. David Oderberg, Philosopher
* Prof. John Oller, Linguistics
* Prof. Chris D. Osborne, Assistant Professor of Biology
* Dr. John Osgood, Medical Practitioner
* Dr. Charles Pallaghy, Botanist
* Dr. Gary E. Parker, Biologist, Cognate in Geology (Paleontology)
* Dr. David Pennington, Plastic Surgeon
* Prof. Richard Porter
* Dr. Georgia Purdom, Molecular Genetics
* Dr. John Rankin, Cosmologist
* Dr. A.S. Reece, M.D.
* Prof. J. Rendle-Short, Pediatrics
* Dr. Jung-Goo Roe, Biology
* Dr. David Rosevear, Chemist
* Dr. Ariel A. Roth, Biology
* Dr. Jonathan D. Sarfati, Physical chemist / spectroscopist
* Dr. Joachim Scheven Palaeontologist:
* Dr. Ian Scott, Educator
* Dr. Saami Shaibani, Forensic physicist
* Dr. Young-Gi Shim, Chemistry
* Prof. Hyun-Kil Shin, Food Science
* Dr. Mikhail Shulgin, Physics
* Dr. Emil Silvestru, Geologist/karstologist
* Dr. Roger Simpson, Engineer
* Dr. Harold Slusher, Geophysicist
* Dr. E. Norbert Smith, Zoologist
* Dr. Andrew Snelling, Geologist
* Prof. Man-Suk Song, Computer Science
* Dr. Timothy G. Standish, Biology
* Prof. James Stark, Assistant Professor of Science Education
* Prof. Brian Stone, Engineer
* Dr. Esther Su, Biochemistry
* Dr. Charles Taylor, Linguistics
* Dr. Stephen Taylor, Electrical Engineering
* Dr. Ker C. Thomson, Geophysics
* Dr. Michael Todhunter, Forest Genetics
* Dr. Lyudmila Tonkonog, Chemistry/Biochemistry
* Dr. Royal Truman, Organic Chemist:
* Dr. Larry Vardiman, Atmospheric Science
* Prof. Walter Veith, Zoologist
* Dr. Joachim Vetter, Biologist
* Dr. Tas Walker, Mechanical Engineer and Geologist
* Dr. Jeremy Walter, Mechanical Engineer
* Dr. Keith Wanser, Physicist
* Dr. Noel Weeks, Ancient Historian (also has B.Sc. in Zoology)
* Dr. A.J. Monty White, Chemistry/Gas Kinetics
* Dr. John Whitmore, Geologist/Paleontologist
* Dr. Carl Wieland, Medical doctor
* Dr. Lara Wieland, Medical doctor
* Dr. Clifford Wilson, Psycholinguist and archaeologist
* Dr. Kurt Wise, Palaeontologist
* Dr. Bryant Wood, Creationist Archaeologist
* Prof. Seoung-Hoon Yang, Physics
* Dr. Thomas (Tong Y.) Yi, Ph.D., Creationist Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering
* Dr. Ick-Dong Yoo, Genetics
* Dr. Sung-Hee Yoon, Biology
* Dr. Patrick Young, Chemist and Materials Scientist
* Prof. Keun Bae Yu, Geography
* Dr. Henry Zuill, Biology


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Re: evolution vs creation [Re: Dan Silverman] #69133
05/16/06 01:12
05/16/06 01:12
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline
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Dan Silverman  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
A decent link on scientists with creationist views:

http://www.creationsafaris.com/wgcs_5.htm#wildersmith


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Re: evolution vs creation [Re: Dan Silverman] #69134
05/16/06 01:25
05/16/06 01:25
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,236
San Diego, CA
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Marco_Grubert Offline
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Yes, at least that list is more current. I don't think stretching the list by including Leonid Korochkin twice helps your case though.
Anyway, compare it to "Steve" and don't forget to multiply that document by 100 to get an idea of the irrelevance of scientists that believe in creationism.

Re: evolution vs creation [Re: Marco_Grubert] #69135
05/16/06 01:42
05/16/06 01:42
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline
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Dan Silverman  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
My intention was not to include anyone twice. And, when it comes to lists, I am sure that anyone can create large lists. And while the majority may rule it does not make them right or wrong ... only the majority. The point of the post is that there are scientists that believe in creation. This means that the two are not mutually exclusive or that religion and science are at odds with each other and this was the point of my lists (not to show that "my list is bigger or more important than yours").


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Re: evolution vs creation [Re: Dan Silverman] #69136
05/16/06 16:03
05/16/06 16:03

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Quote:

1.) the observable fact: a river is moving along a terrain

2.) sollution one: religion.... we can claim that the reason the river moves how it moves is because of something called "spirit of the river" a holy power or some sort of supernatural god will. this makes the river bend and stream and break his way thru the landscape




That's so irrelevant, its not even worth mentioning. That's like me saying that because scientists thought the earth was flat, science is irrational.

Quote:

intelligent design has one big problem and is a risk to religion: if evolution can be proved with one single fact this would kill god.




It can't be proved with any 'facts' though.

Quote:

it has been shown more then often that animals included into different environments and raised by other species will addapt their behavior.




We have two different claims here, then. I'd like to see either of them backed up.




And now we get down to the best proof of evolution:

Everyone believes it! Or at least most of them do, so let's all just jump on the bandwagon.

Re: evolution vs creation [Re: Dan Silverman] #69137
05/16/06 17:44
05/16/06 17:44
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,982
Frankfurt
jcl Offline OP

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jcl  Offline OP

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Quote:

The point of the post is that there are scientists that believe in creation. This means that the two are not mutually exclusive or that religion and science are at odds with each other and this was the point of my lists




Not religion and science. Only creationism and science. When I estimate that there are about 6 million scientists in the world (10 scientists per 10,000 people), your list means that about 0.001% scientists and engineers believe in creationism. Thats even well below the usual 2% whacko rate.

Quote:

Actually, no. This is not correct. You would need to know at least the original amount of energy put into the stone (the original velocity of the stone). Without knowing this you cannot accurately determine the starting place of the stone's throw. For example, if a kid throws a stone and you only see it just before it hits the ground (i.e. at the point where the force of gravity is overtaking the inertia of the stone) or if someone fired the stone from a sling shot (more initial inertia) and you see it at the point just before it hits the ground then you are only seeing the stone (in both cases) with approx. the same amount of energy. You cannot therefore know from how far the stone was thrown or shot. There are just too many variables in this situation.




Hmm. A stone hitting the ground at position (x,y) and speed vector (vx,vy,vz) was thrown from the starting position (x-2vx*vz/g,y-2vy*vz/g), neglecting the air friction.

Quote:

For generation after generation the same type of bird nests in the same way without deviation. This observation would indicate that birds did not all begin nesting on the ground and then evolve into tree nesting animals. Instead, this observation would lend itself to the idea that a Robin has always built its nest in the same manner.




The Robin, yes. But one of his evolutionary predecessors, probably not.

The fact that you can't observe the back side of the moon does not mean that the back side of the moon does not exist.

Quote:

I am sure you have heard the old phrase, "You can't get something from nothing!" How can a mutation (and a random one at that) add information that was not there before?




As a kid I owned an electronics experiments kit, consisting of a number of components like transistors, capacitors, batteries, lights, a loudspeaker, and so on. The components were placed in plastic cubes with magnetic contacts along the edges, so you could build all sorts of electronic devices by just placing the cubes together in the form of the desired circuit.

I noticed that when shuffling the cubes so that they fell together in a random order, mostly nothing happened, but sometimes the loudspeaker would produce a tone, like clicking, beeping or humming, or sometimes the light was flickering. The random cluster of components formed circuits like oscillators, phase shifters, or amplifiers.

This is what also happens in the DNA all the time. Information can come out of seemingly nothing. But it's not "nothing" of course. It's the energy put in by shuffling the components. There's no magic involved. Information gain in the gene pool requires an energy transfer that increases the entropy of the overall system.

Quote:

Are you actually saying that the birds that crack nuts under the wheels of cars have experienced a mutation and that those that do not have not experienced this mutation? In other words, if we were to take an egg from one of these birds, hatch it in an incubator and then release it (where there aren't any of its kind, but there are streets, cars and stop lights) that this bird will start to crack nuts under the wheels of cars at stop lights? I don't think so.




I won't argue here. I have crows and traffic lights in my neighborhood, but have never observed those crows using cars for cracking their nuts. Without further research one can not tell for sure whether it's instinct or learning.


@Irish:

Quote:

I believe that time dialation can explain this, and that relatively the universe is alternately billions of years old and thousands of years old.




Time dilatation, resp. general relativity, is indeed considered in the formula for calculating the distances of far objects. But I'm afraid time dilatation does not offer the possibility that the universe is alternately billions of years old and thousands of years old.

Quote:

If the Milky Way galaxy is about 80,000 to 100,000 light years in diameter, and contains about 200 to 400 billion stars, why are there so few stars in the sky?




We can see more than 2000 stars with the bare eye, but due to the illumination with electric light we normally only see about 300..400. With a good telescope you can see and count all the billions of stars that are not too close to the center of the galaxy. You can even see single stars in other galaxies, like Andromeda.

Quote:

In that case, a mutation can lose information, add it to the gene pool and be called new information. Its relative to the genome.




You mean when an allele that removes a feature is added to the gene pool? I guess this is not considered new information. In my understanding, new information means that a new feature (replacing an old one in an individual) is added to the gene pool, as in the Milano mutation.

Quote:

Its just an observed fact that mutations don't add information.




Observations not shared by anyone else are normally not called observations, but visions.

Quote:

Audesirk & Audesirk, Biology, 5th edition, 1999, pages 230 - 231

That's a college textbook, I believe. Creationists don't dispute bacterial resistance via mutation, science does.




I am not sure what you want to prove with that quote. Mutations happen by randomly changing DNA sequences, but also by inserting parts from foreign DNA or from the own DNA.

Re: evolution vs creation [Re: jcl] #69138
05/16/06 20:09
05/16/06 20:09
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
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Quote:

And now we get down to the best proof of evolution:

Everyone believes it! Or at least most of them do, so let's all just jump on the bandwagon.




Oww how I grow tired of these kind of remarks. Our motivations goes more than just a bit further than 'ow let's believe in evolution because it makes us look as cool as all the others who believe in evolution'.
If you use that kind of reasoning then it's no wonder you believe in creation. What's your problem with science anyways? Again, I've seen so little details about the creationism theory that have a more plausible answer to certain questions than science seems to have, let alone evidence in favor of the creationists theory.

As for the list of scientists that I've never even heard off before (most of them, not all), such a list says little to nothing to me. Yes, I know it wasn't your intention to post a big list to be able to support your claim stronger, but you did decide to post it.
I could post a list of scientists that do not believe in creationism next to it, and your list would by far not be as long as mine would be. Infact, I could post a list of christians believing in evolution next to it, and that list could very well be longer already than your list of scientists that 'believe in creationism'. Whatever that exactly means per scientist can be very different. It doesn't say they believe in creationism as been written literally in the bible, or wether they believe that life in the beginning has been created by (a) God?

Quote:

intelligent design has one big problem and is a risk to religion: if evolution can be proved with one single fact this would kill god.




Mmm, maybe not. Intelligent design could include evolution or can it not? There are people who consider God to be 'out of the picture and at rest', as in yes he has created the earth and life, but now he doesn't care about it no more and doesn't influence it anymore. (I mean care, as in observing and controlling.) What if he made us 'sensitive to mutations and thus sensitive to evolution' from the beginning on so he wouldn't have to control life directly? I'd say that would be a pretty clever designer, always dynamic life. Yet the designer part cannot be proven I guess, just like God cannot be proven. I think the concept of a God is too human to be correct. By the way, are there creationists out here that believe in a possibility of life in outerspace? What kind of explanation could the bible give for that? (Yes, I know it's pure theoretically, but if it's not predicted and we do find it, that would prove the bible wrong I guess?)

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Re: evolution vs creation [Re: PHeMoX] #69139
05/17/06 04:26
05/17/06 04:26
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
Blattsalat Offline
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but if you remove god from the "intelligent" design nothing more is left. You will lose "intelligent" (god) and the design (almighty creator=god) so the conclusion is that life came from nowhere

the problem with hardcore creationsim is that they set up the rule: if we can disprove evolution, creationism must be right. Without any logic or evidence. This claim has to be true because it has to be true.
This is not scientific at all. They set up rules that support evolution in the main idea (genetic mutation for example) and accpect it since its an observable fact.
Then you rip thing out of context to find a phenomeneon or something unexplainable and make this made up rules look false.

example: we accept aearo dynamics and the modern flight. But because we cant explain how the humble bee is able to lift its body into the air, nothing else can fly.


Also the lack of definition is a big problem with creationism.
What is a species, what is human life, a mutation, evidance or proof and so on.
If you want to prove something wrong you will have to set up the definitions first.

Every scientist will admit that any theory can have mistakes, errors or misinterpretations.
The idea of science is to get those bugs out of the theories.
The development of the theory of evolution is like the development of the gs engine updates: it takes forever to release the final candidate and all the work has to be done by doug ... and once released even more has to be done to satisfy the audience.
Incompleteness doesnt make the engine wrong or none existent. Its just not ready "enough" for everyone.


-->..just like God cannot be proven...

It can be proven if defined first. Lets see: the theory of some old, white bearded men on a mountain called olymp had to be trashed.
The idea of a heavens gate in the sky was denied by american airlines. And if G.Bush continues to drill for oil arround the world we can soon close the "hell in the middle of the earth" case as well.

If on the other hand you say that god is the good in us, the little thing that makes us do the right things and the little difference that makes us better then the average bag of sand or some rocks ...or at least the power to make us try to become better.
Then its cristal clear, god exists and he will as long as there are good people.
Its just like one of those befenit tv money collection shows: "call 555-safe us! go and pick up your phone and save god. all you have to do is to donate some humanity. Do it, you have anyway more then you could spend in your whole lifetime" call 555-...!


and to be honest: the idea that all life we know today was created out of a puddle of mud and developed to what we see today is anything but against religion or god.
And on judgement day you can lean back and say: Yesterday just a puddle of mudd, and today a thinking, feeling and loving human being. no bad vita at all

cheers


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Re: evolution vs creation [Re: Blattsalat] #69140
05/17/06 06:45
05/17/06 06:45
Joined: Feb 2004
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Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer Offline
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I can only respond to one post for now. Must sleep.

Quote:

Not religion and science. Only creationism and science. When I estimate that there are about 6 million scientists in the world (10 scientists per 10,000 people), your list means that about 0.001% scientists and engineers believe in creationism. Thats even well below the usual 2% whacko rate.




This is an argument in spite of data, and it makes a bit of a straw man out of what Dan said. What Dan's list was meant to do is show there are creationists in science. By no means is it a scientific way of telling HOW MANY creation scientists there are. Your statement only makes sense if we believe that that list is entirely representative of all creation scientists everywhere.

Not that I think the whole argument is worth a grain of salt anyway.

Quote:

The fact that you can't observe the back side of the moon does not mean that the back side of the moon does not exist.




This is shifting the burden of proof. We always observe these animals building nests relatively the same way. My proof is in the observation. You can't make a claim and then call it substantial because no one can disprove it. Make a claim thats contrary to what we see, and then prove it.

Quote:

As a kid I owned an electronics experiments kit, consisting of a number of components like transistors, capacitors, batteries, lights, a loudspeaker, and so on. The components were placed in plastic cubes with magnetic contacts along the edges, so you could build all sorts of electronic devices by just placing the cubes together in the form of the desired circuit.

I noticed that when shuffling the cubes so that they fell together in a random order, mostly nothing happened, but sometimes the loudspeaker would produce a tone, like clicking, beeping or humming, or sometimes the light was flickering. The random cluster of components formed circuits like oscillators, phase shifters, or amplifiers.




This disregards everything we know about the nature of DNA information, and organisms. Normally the idea of a metaphor is to be a simplified representation, but in this case I think its oversimplified.

Quote:

We can see more than 2000 stars with the bare eye, but due to the illumination with electric light we normally only see about 300..400. With a good telescope you can see and count all the billions of stars that are not too close to the center of the galaxy. You can even see single stars in other galaxies, like Andromeda.




I wasn't taking into account the fact that some of them are just going to be too hard to see without an aid.

That explains it.

Quote:

new information means that a new feature (replacing an old one in an individual) is added to the gene pool, as in the Milano mutation.




Not with respect to genetics. And what the milano mutation did is actually a great example of the harm of mutations (I mean harm relatively, since it turned out to be good, but was harmful to the genome).

I won't get back into the debate on milano mutations unless you really want to, but suffice it to say that this mutation didn't offer a new feature. Depending on your definition of feature.

Quote:

I am not sure what you want to prove with that quote. Mutations happen by randomly changing DNA sequences, but also by inserting parts from foreign DNA or from the own DNA.




I'm only saying that bacteria can gain antibiotic resistance without mutations, and in fact that's how it happens. The insertion from foreign DNA is quite different from the kind of insertion caused by mutations. By the way, getting the DNA from somewhere else (assuming an external 'insertion' which is a really bad term to use for what happens) doesn't go to show how it was written in the first place, so I fail to see how that helps the mutation argument.


I must ask a question. If the universe is so old, how come comets give it an age of around 10,000 years? Excluding assumptions like the Oort cloud, how can you resolve this problem knowing what we know today? I'm just trying to iron things out in my head, astronomy has never been a huge interest of mine, but I do like to learn about it from time to time.

Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 05/17/06 06:47.

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