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#224606 - 08/31/08 11:15 Re: What the evolutionists havn't mentioned so far ***** [Re: Hand_Of_Law]
PHeMoX Offline
Senior Expert

Registered: 09/19/02
Posts: 8177
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Hand_Of_Law
[quote=Impaler]Could you describe exactly the theory of creationism you find plausible, and how it describes the origins of the universe, life and speciation on a scientific way ?


If you're interested in finding out a little bit more about that, I recommend watching the Zeitgeist movie. You will probably find the part about religions quite interesting.

But... the only thing 'scientific' about creationism and the stories in the bible, is how it all literally refers to astronomic events. It's quite likely the reason why so many of the religious center stories share almost all the details.

I have to add that the Zeitgeist movie isn't flawless, but it does a good job most of the time.
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#226382 - 09/09/08 16:49 Re: Science and Creation [Re: Matt_Aufderheide]
pararealist Offline
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Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 434
Loc: UK,Terra, SolarSystem, Milky W...
QUOTE:if the Bible is wrong, then there is no God, no Jesus, and no immortality in Heaven. Man dies and that's it. To many people this is unacceptable, and would cause insanity.

Why would the bible being wrong mean that there is no immortality?
Since having an OBE, i am convinced that we do not "die" when we lose our body,
so maybe we continue on in a different form.
(A previous god, bible believer).
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#226383 - 09/09/08 16:52 Re: Science and Creation [Re: pararealist]
PHeMoX Offline
Senior Expert

Registered: 09/19/02
Posts: 8177
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: pararealist
QUOTE:if the Bible is wrong, then there is no God, no Jesus, and no immortality in Heaven. Man dies and that's it. To many people this is unacceptable, and would cause insanity.

Why would the bible being wrong mean that there is no immortality


You're proving the point made in the statement actually... It's difficult to accept that there will be nothing after you die.

Cheers
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#259104 - 04/03/09 23:44 Re: Science and Creation [Re: PHeMoX]
delerna Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Australia , NSW
QUOTE
Sin
You said that God is almighty and knows everything. He rules over time and space. If all this applies then He must have realized the sinning from the beginning.

So why he offered the snake and the apple to Adam and Eve? He must have known that they will fail. He created them. He could have made them robust against sin. He could have made them that way that they dislike forbidden apples and don't want to talk with snakes.

But he did not. So the sin must have been an initial part of his design.
/QUOTE

Well that's one way to look at it, if you must.

The way I see it is that we were made in the image of our creator.
Among other things, this meant we would have a strong desire to create
as he does, and in order to do that effectively we would need to have free will.

Those two characteristics would enable us to extend the garden to cover the earth. However, in doing that he did not relinquish authority to decide what is good and what is bad to us. Obedience to the restriction signified our acceptance of his authority. Taking the forbidden fruit is our attempt at usurping Gods authority. The disatrous results of that usurption are obvious to anyone who wants to look at the world realistically.

I know this is not scientific....but neither is the question.


Edited by delerna (04/04/09 00:05)

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#259150 - 04/04/09 13:08 Re: Science and Creation [Re: delerna]
EvilSOB Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 3232
Loc: Australia
Just to throw my two cents in, forgive me for not supplying the original names of any quotes.

Quote:
if the Bible is wrong, then there is no God, no Jesus, and no immortality in Heaven. Man dies and that's it. To many people this is unacceptable, and would cause insanity.
Assuming the the Bible is wrong, how does this PROVE there is no God, Jesus, and immortality?
The Bible may be chock full of incorrectness, but still contain SOME truth.
If a good book cant PROVE they DO exist, how can a bad book prove they DONT?


Quote:
So why he offered the snake and the apple to Adam and Eve? He must have known that they will fail. He created them. He could have made them robust against sin. He could have made them that way that they dislike forbidden apples and don't want to talk with snakes.
By creating them robust against evil, he would have had to limit or remove free-will.
Just because someone is CAPABLE of commiting sin, doesnt mean they MUST.
Do YOU commit a sin EVERY time you see the opportunity to do so, cause I dont,
and I aint no saint. (PS Im not even a "believer" in the truest sense)

Another thought, most of the time when people are creating some'thing', they will use tools.
Cant God have created a tool called 'Evolution' to simplify his works, and avoid all that
messing about concentrating on every single species?
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#259244 - 04/05/09 01:14 Re: Science and Creation [Re: EvilSOB]
Quad Offline
Senior Expert

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 5137
Loc: İstanbul, Turkey
Bible is wrong in some parts, this is what we believe in Islam.God sent another Messenger because the previous messages were altered/modified in some human will.
(though im not religious and dont know the religion in depth...)

I didnt really completely read Bible nor Quran, but from what i see understanding and definition of God is both similiar and slightly diffrent. But in both of the religions the definition of the God is impossible in this universe.This is mostly the main cause people not believing God. Imposiblity of God. And again according to our belief the definition of God is not exactly true in current Bible.

[begining from this part i am talking from Islam aspect] But God doesnt live in this universe nor God has a life.Life,death etc. is created by God and is something that humans are bound to, not God. God is eternal. But this universe is not eternal, has a begining and sure will have an end. All universe is created by God, and no, he didn't created evolution to make His works easier. (Altough i say "His", God doesnt have a gender either.)
When people try to understand and concive an image of the God in their mind, with their limited thinking and imagination, they come to the result that God is impossible.(Plus they always try to imagine God as human-like thing which makes it harder.)Limited thinking? Ideas, possiblities and thinking are limited to all knowledge we got, and the maximum knowledge we can get is the all knowledge in total in this universe. And this knowledge is not enough to assamble a complete image of the God in limited human mind.(by image i dont mean just the apperance of God but also his capabilites of doing things.). Just like no one can really imagine eternality. (Yeah you can say that no begining-no end, but no real image, just an explanation.)

Anything on this universe(contatining other dimensions) can not create a single atom, nor can completely destroy it. We can only convert them to diffrent types of existence but cannot create a new one from nothing, and we cant make an existing thing to not to exist. The capability of "creating" is exclusive to God.

First, in Islam, Jesus is not a God nor son of the God. He is the messenger of the God, just like Moses,Muhammed,David,Noah,Lot.....

Definition of God is very detailed but basically, He is not born,not given birth,He is immortal and eternal. He has full control over all universe,and created it.
God is not dependant on time, time is just another thing in this universe created by God. And God doesn't get tired, He is completely free from human needs. Things like hunger,boredom,getting tired are human things which is God not bound to.

Creation of the human race is similiar in both religions, Adam and Eve, apple and that kind of stuff. The existance of the Satan is about same time, but thats another story, you can read Quran for this.

But another question rises, "ok, then God creates/controls everything then why we are here and living our time, God control's us right? Why don't He just send us to heaven or hell and remove the ability to questioning reasons of being in hell?". Well, this is a complicated part, before getting answer for this you have to find a lot answers for other questions, but answer is that God gave humans free will. Altough we have free will and can decide which way we go, God knows which one you choose since He is not bound to time. Being time independent is another thing that limited human mind can accept easily.

About spirit, actually scincefic disciplines like para-physcology points existence of such thing you have to experince yourself to believe. This part is where i became a believer. But i am not gonna talk about this long stroy either. But matter itself is does not complete a human. there must be an external power/being.

[For science vs religion part]
I don't know about Christianity but science and relegion is not opposite things. Islam itself encourages people to learn/make/spread/research/discover science. And there is no single conflict between Quran and science. You can't solely define evolution as scince since it's a theory and yet to be proved. There is a lot of parts that evolution and Darwin himself accepts but can't explain with or fit in the theory. There are scientific facts like bigbang cannot explained without existance of outer power(God). God is not logical? "Nothing exploded for no reason and created everything" is not very logical either.Ok yeah this questions used alot against atheism and evolution but there are another facts tho. Such things like bingbang is evidence to existance of "Outer Power". In fact all that universe and beatifully harmonic systems in universe is sings of a "Outher Power that is not Mindless".

i talk too much again.

this is sorta video i like about finding God(english video, title says, Story of Australian Man Becoming Muslim.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC4Lsfutx38
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qSuJyhiboI

sorry for being off topic mostly, if i distrub/harass anyone this can be deleted.




Edited by Quadraxas (04/05/09 01:49)
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#259251 - 04/05/09 02:21 Re: Science and Creation [Re: Quad]
delerna Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Australia , NSW
Quadraxas
You don't talk too much.....well said.
Don't agree with all you said but in essentials, yes.

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#295165 - 10/23/09 11:26 Re: Science and Creation [Re: delerna]
PadMalcom Offline
Serious User

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 1989
Loc: Karlsruhe
In my eyes the bible has more or less a learning and a metaphorical character than a historical one. If you see Eve and Adam, for instance, several priests will admit that one has to regard it as analogy but as the true development of mankind. The reason for this exemplary story is that Christians should learn to act after the will of god.
Same holds for a lot of other stories, too: Noah, Jonas, ...

In my personal opinion I believe in natural science and in the slow evolution of mankind without any outer influence. But nevertheless, the bible, the quran, ... act as great tools to communicate and teach social values!

In contrast to my belief I wish we were brought here by aliens. This would make science and life more interesting laugh

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#339002 - 08/23/10 20:04 Re: Science and Creation [Re: Quad]
AlbertoT Offline
Serious User

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1245
Originally Posted By: Quadraxas


Anything on this universe(contatining other dimensions) can not create a single atom, nor can completely destroy it. We can only convert them to diffrent types of existence but cannot create a new one from nothing, and we cant make an existing thing to not to exist. The capability of "creating" is exclusive to God.



This is (has been) the main argument in favour of existence of God but modern Quantum Physics has ( seem to have ) razed it to the ground
According to the modern theory "something" must exist , the " non existance " is not possible
Read for example " The lightness of Being, Ether and the unification of forces " by the nobel price for Physics Frank Wilczek
You feed your super computer with all the available data, it runs for hours to solve the super complicated equations of modern nuclear physics , finally it spits out its sentence :

Vacuum can not exist , it would not be consistent with the theory

Of course the theory might be partially wrong but the above result is not due to prejudice of atheist scientists


Edited by AlbertoT (08/23/10 20:06)

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#339003 - 08/23/10 20:10 Re: Science and Creation [Re: AlbertoT]
Michael_Schwarz Offline
Senior Expert

Registered: 08/30/03
Posts: 7422
Loc: Red Dwarf
Originally Posted By: AlbertoT
You feed your super computer with all the available data, it runs for hours to solve the super complicated equations of modern nuclear physics , finally it spits out its sentence :

Vacuum can not exist , it would not be consistent with the theory

Of course the theory might be partially wrong but the above result is not due to prejudice of atheist scientists


Of course, at this point Black Matter jumps in, which we don't yet know what it is. So there is still lots and lots of stuff to explore before we can give definite answers on things.
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