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#210966 - 06/14/08 09:53 Re: What the evolutionists havn't mentioned so far ***** [Re: Impaler]
Tobias Offline
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Registered: 08/15/00
Posts: 1140
Loc: Baunatal, Germany
Originally Posted By: Impaler
You are right about the Urey-Miller experiment: It does not prove that life could not have arisen by chance. However it does prove that it could not have come about by that process, and that is the only theory that I know of (besides from outer space, but that just moves the problem to space, doesn't it?)

Actually as far as I know there are about 10 different plausible theories about the origin of life. Look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life

Science at the moment does not know which of the 10 is right, if any. Thats still one of the gaps in our knowledge but does not mean that God sits in all those gaps. If He did, he would become smaller and smaller as our knowledge grows and the gaps are getting smaller and smaller. Thats why I do not believe that you can find God in gaps, as Creationists think.

Originally Posted By: Impaler
Also, the amino acids will not form in the presence of oxygen, and oxygen is just as much a part of water vapour as hydrogen is, Tobias.

Thats a misunderstanding, Impaler. Amino acids will form in the presence of water vapor. Only pure oxygen O2 or O3 can prevent the forming of long amino chains, but pure oxygen was not present in the early atmosphere.

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#210982 - 06/14/08 11:38 Re: What the evolutionists havn't mentioned so far [Re: Tobias]
Impaler Offline
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Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 128
Loc: Papua New Guinea
Yes, I had a look at that Wikipedia page and I see 5 models for the formation of life, all of which involve either the synthesis of compounds by random chance or some kind of pre-life "natural selection". Frankly I found the Urey-Miller experiment the most convincing. How you can say that NH3 is hydrogen but H20 is not oxygen makes no sense to me.

Quote:

Pure oxygen was not present in the early atmosphere.


That is an absurd thing to say. Just take a look at this page: Miller-Urey experiment

The existence of oxygen in a "primitive atmosphere" is controverial. To dismiss it as absent is to evade the argument.

By the way, I am not trying to prove God's existence by showing the shortcomings of evolution. I am trying to demonstrate that creationism is a plausible theory, and that belief in God's existence does not mean belief in an un-scientific and old-fashioned theory. Evolution is a theory, not a law, and it is important that people know this.
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#211005 - 06/14/08 14:02 Re: What the evolutionists havn't mentioned so far [Re: Impaler]
AlbertoT Offline
Serious User

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1245
Originally Posted By: Impaler
But are you sinning any less than them?


At least I would expect to deserve to have the same chances as Adam and Eve
We got started as super men and super women , then step by step because of our sins...


Edited by AlbertoT (06/14/08 14:02)

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#211057 - 06/14/08 19:42 Re: What the evolutionists havn't mentioned so far [Re: AlbertoT]
Machinery_Frank Offline
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Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 7121
Loc: Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Originally Posted By: AlbertoT
Originally Posted By: Impaler
But are you sinning any less than them?


At least I would expect to deserve to have the same chances as Adam and Eve
We got started as super men and super women , then step by step because of our sins...


Sin
You said that God is almighty and knows everything. He rules over time and space. If all this applies then He must have realized the sinning from the beginning.

So why he offered the snake and the apple to Adam and Eve? He must have known that they will fail. He created them. He could have made them robust against sin. He could have made them that way that they dislike forbidden apples and don't want to talk with snakes.

But he did not. So the sin must have been an initial part of his design.

Punishment
If God already knew of his weak creatures and of the sin that will happen then he already knew that he will punish them with banning from paradise and with the flood and all that.

So why he designed us so weak to punish us? Is he an evil child? Does he like the punishments?
Very strange situation.
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#211123 - 06/15/08 07:08 Re: What the evolutionists havn't mentioned so far [Re: Machinery_Frank]
Tobias Offline
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Registered: 08/15/00
Posts: 1140
Loc: Baunatal, Germany
Originally Posted By: Machinery_Frank
So why he offered the snake and the apple to Adam and Eve? He must have known that they will fail. He created them. He could have made them robust against sin. He could have made them that way that they dislike forbidden apples and don't want to talk with snakes.

Well there are many, many interpretations to that story of the forbidden fruit. The most strange and nonsensical interpretation IMHO is the original sin idea, which is not originally Christian.

A better interpretation is that God made us with a free will, able to choose between good and evil. Free will makes only sense of course when everyone can choose for himself. Not Adams sin, but our own sins condemn us.

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#211124 - 06/15/08 08:01 Not a theological discussion [Re: Tobias]
Impaler Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 128
Loc: Papua New Guinea
Everything God does will eventually result in greater glory for Him, and the redemption of mankind is that fulfillment. If you want more Christian, theological answers, read the Bible (more specifically the New Testament). It will tell you much better than I will, although I suppose this forum isn't even meant to be about the Bible.
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#211165 - 06/15/08 13:06 Re: Not a theological discussion [Re: Impaler]
Machinery_Frank Offline
Senior Expert

Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 7121
Loc: Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Ok. Then it cannot be answered. The bible is a book about murder, sin, inbreeding, many story collected over a long period of time similar to stories of other religions.

It will not answer my questions. It will raise even more questions.
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#211204 - 06/15/08 18:54 Re: Not a theological discussion [Re: Impaler]
PHeMoX Offline
Senior Expert

Registered: 09/19/02
Posts: 8177
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Impaler
Everything God does will eventually result in greater glory for Him, and the redemption of mankind is that fulfillment. If you want more Christian, theological answers, read the Bible (more specifically the New Testament). It will tell you much better than I will, although I suppose this forum isn't even meant to be about the Bible.


How do you know everything God does will eventually result in 'greater glory for Him' (whatever that means, please explain) ????

I totally agree with Frank here, if you're talking about looking for answers, then the Bible only raises more questions for me as well...
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#211431 - 06/16/08 18:53 Re: What the evolutionists havn't mentioned so far [Re: Impaler]
Hand_Of_Law Offline
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Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 33
Loc: Russia/Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Impaler

By the way, I am not trying to prove God's existence by showing the shortcomings of evolution. I am trying to demonstrate that creationism is a plausible theory, and that belief in God's existence does not mean belief in an un-scientific and old-fashioned theory. Evolution is a theory, not a law, and it is important that people know this.

Could you describe exactly the theory of creationism you find plausible, and how it describes the origins of the universe, life and speciation on a scientific way ?

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#224544 - 08/30/08 21:48 Re: Science and Creation [Re: William]
cro_games Offline
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Registered: 09/20/07
Posts: 761
Loc: Hrvatska (Croatia ), Slavonski...
interesting...
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