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#210834 - 06/13/08 11:36 Re: Science and Creation ***** [Re: NITRO777]
Machinery_Frank Offline
Senior Expert

Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 7121
Loc: Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
If you believe in a Designer / Creator / God then you could ask yourself why He made us such a weak creature. Compared to animals we are slow runners with only few endurance, we dont have good weapons like claws, tusks, teeth or horns. We are not very strong nor big. We cannot fly and we swim very slow.

We are just a medium being with some more brain cells. We are arrogant and ignorant although we are just a naked ape, nothing more, a mammal without decent fur. Our brain helped to destroy the nature, to enslave animals or other humans and to spread like a Virus around this world. We double our numbers every 40 years. Soon we dont have enough water to drink nor enough food to eat.

This is a simple result of domination, random evolution and of our very overestimated so called "intelligence" that is still lead by natural urges.

If that would be a plan from a Designer then He/he/She/she must have a really bad sense of humor.
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#210838 - 06/13/08 12:01 Re: What the evolutionists havn't mentioned so far [Re: Impaler]
Machinery_Frank Offline
Senior Expert

Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 7121
Loc: Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Originally Posted By: Impaler
1.) The Urey-Miller experiment: This experiment was very strong evidence ...


This sounds very contrary to me and does not convince or prove anything. I write it with simple words:

You say that this single experiment failed so you say it is a proof that evolution did not happen.

I try to talk the same way like you now: "I once tried to pray to God and got no response. So God does not exist."

I think you and I probably took the wrong approch here wink
The induction to draw a conclusion from only one little experiment is very dangerous.
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#210847 - 06/13/08 13:27 Re: What the evolutionists havn't mentioned so far [Re: Machinery_Frank]
Lukas Offline

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Registered: 05/13/07
Posts: 2042
Loc: Germany
Who created God?
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#210860 - 06/13/08 15:09 Re: What the evolutionists havn't mentioned so far [Re: Lukas]
Machinery_Frank Offline
Senior Expert

Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 7121
Loc: Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Originally Posted By: Lukas
Who created God?


The Overloard created the Loard. And the Over-Overloard created the Overloard. There is always a bigger fish in the sea smile
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#210868 - 06/13/08 16:11 Re: What the evolutionists havn't mentioned so far [Re: Impaler]
Tobias Offline
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Registered: 08/15/00
Posts: 1140
Loc: Baunatal, Germany
Originally Posted By: Impaler
The Urey-Miller experiment: This experiment was very strong evidence against evolution 50 years ago, but is still being quoted in text books today as the origin of life.
The aim of the experiment was to be able to create extremely simple amino acids from a mixture of gases and an electrical spark, supposedly similar to the atmosphere of a "Primitive earth". The only problem is that to create these simple acids, hydrogen must be present in the mixture. Is there any hydrogen in earth's lower atmosphere, where there happens to be lightning? I don't think so. Being the lightest existing element, it will be sitting on top of all those other gases, on the edge of space.

Hydrogen is contained not only in water vapor but also in almost all gases of the early atmosphere, like ammonia and methane from volcanoes. All those gases were available in the lower atmosphere of course.

Urey-Miller just used the gas mix of which the lower earth atmosphere was assumed to consist of, 4.5 billion years ago.

Originally Posted By: Impaler
Lets just pretend that there is hydrogen in earth's lower atmosphere and an amino acid happens to form.

No need to pretend it, that was just what the Urey-Miller experiment successfully proved.

Originally Posted By: Impaler
What then? There are 22 amino acids used to make proteins in a living cell, and this experiment managed to produce two or three. A protein, by the way, is nothing compared to a cell. It is a building block of cell components, and many, many cell components must make up a single cell. DNA is totally out of the question: You need this monster to even make proteins, and it is composed of tens to hundreds of millions of nucleotides, all in the glitch free "programming" to construct the basic components of a cell. No matter how hard for how long you try, you will never arrive at DNA by chance with a couple of amino acids.

This is a misunderstanding of "arrive at DNA". The life did not start with DNA at all, it started with self organization of very few amino acids like those produced by Urey-Miller experiment.

Originally Posted By: Impaler
The flagellum on a bacterium is composed of 50 parts that work together like an electric motor: if just one of them is out of place, the bacteria will not have propulsion. This in itself is massive proof against evolution: if this device was built up by natural selection, how was a non-functioning appendage on the back of the bacterium favoured by natural selection over the “millions of years” that it took to perfect it?

This question is asked by creationists all the time and patiently answered by scientists also all the time. smile You just need to read their answers, also about the bombardier beetle, look here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB200_1.html

and here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/bombardier.html


Nobody has yet found anything which would disprove evolution, but all the time more and more things are found that are evidence that evolution really happened. God made us, but he used evolution! smile

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#210930 - 06/13/08 23:47 Re: What the evolutionists havn't mentioned so far [Re: Impaler]
AlbertoT Offline
Serious User

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1245
Quote:

you will never arrive at DNA by chance with a couple of amino acids


Even though I am not definitly a creationist it is a matter of fact that even the simplest organism capable of reproducing itself is far away to complex to assume that it was the result of the mere chance

Evolution by itsself is deterministic but such basic organism is a necessary starting point
This is still a mistery
I am confident that sooner or later science will find an explanation but it is just an emotional issue same as the faith in God

Quote:

The flagellum on a bacterium is composed of 50 parts that work together ...


As someone else said this is a popular but false creationist claim
The trick is to assume that the flagellum has been designed from the very beginning as a...flagellum
Maybe it was just a simple and even useless protuberance
The organism evolved thanks to other usefull features but since it was fitted also with this protuberance also the protuberance has been transmitted to his sons
Or maybe it was of some use , for example , as a sort of "anchor" or as a " radiator" to cool down the body
Some hundred years later , by chance, this protuberance started moving and it turned into a much more useful locomotion tool






Edited by AlbertoT (06/13/08 23:54)

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#210958 - 06/14/08 07:36 Re: What the evolutionists havn't mentioned so far [Re: AlbertoT]
Impaler Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 128
Loc: Papua New Guinea
Machinery_Frank,
I would like to remind you that many of us creationists believe that humans were originally created much more physically capable than we are today. The fact that we are no longer in this state is due to sin: we rebelled against God's perfect plan for the world, and as a result we are no longer within his perfect design. The decay of the human body is shown in Genesis, as lifespans gradually decreased until we end up with what we have today: The typical human who lives to just 75 years of age.
The same goes for our mental state; we were not always murderous, destroying, ignorant creatures, but when we rejected God, we became everything He isn't.
You are right about the Urey-Miller experiment: It does not prove that life could not have arisen by chance. However it does prove that it could not have come about by that process, and that is the only theory that I know of (besides from outer space, but that just moves the problem to space, doesn't it?)
Also, the amino acids will not form in the presence of oxygen, and oxygen is just as much a part of water vapour as hydrogen is, Tobias. Also, the hydrogen used in the experiment was pure H2, and it was necessary in that form, as other compounds with hydrogen were present already (such as CH4 and NH3)
Lukas, by asking "who created God?", you leave yourself exposed to questions such as "where did that superdense atom that caused the big bang come from?". I do however have an answer: No-one. God is outside of time, therefore He is not bound to time-based laws. He did not need to be created, because He is the creator, and created time itself. He is infinite in every respect, including time. He was around "before" time was.

Quote:

This is a misunderstanding of "arrive at DNA". The life did not start with DNA at all, it started with self organization of very few amino acids like those produced by Urey-Miller experiment.


if something doesn't have DNA, it cannot reproduce
To be alive, an organism(or species of organism) must be capable of reproducing
If it cannot reproduce it is not alive
therefore, if it doesn't have DNA, it is not alive.

QED

Just out of curiosity, I would like to see a detailed progression from those supposed initial amino acids to the first cells or living organisms.

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#210960 - 06/14/08 08:59 Re: What the evolutionists havn't mentioned so far [Re: Impaler]
AlbertoT Offline
Serious User

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1245
Originally Posted By: Impaler

many of us creationists believe that humans were originally created much more physically capable than we are today. The fact that we are no longer in this state is due to sin:


In other words
Those who committed the sin remained more or less physically capable people while we , 6000 thousand years later, must die for cancer because of their sin

A strange sense of justice

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#210962 - 06/14/08 09:05 Re: What the evolutionists havn't mentioned so far [Re: AlbertoT]
Impaler Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 128
Loc: Papua New Guinea
But are you sinning any less than them?
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Murphey's Law:
<< if anything can go wrong, it will >>

(Murphey was an optimist).

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#210963 - 06/14/08 09:11 Re: What the evolutionists havn't mentioned so far [Re: Impaler]
pararealist Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 434
Loc: UK,Terra, SolarSystem, Milky W...
Once i used to believe in god, as i was brought up to do so.
It all seemed to make sense, until i started studying world history.
Then i realised that the bible was just a history book, (incomplete at that)
and written some 30,000 years ago in humankinds history, (not 3000).

Every following generation has taken these stories and modified them for their
generation. So from the original names new names appeared for the characters and cities and places.

My belief NOW at this time (this is no guarantee that it is right) but it is what i believe due to my search for knowledge in mankinds history.

Some 50000 years ago, aliens landed on Earth. A certain faction of them started to genetically manipulate the human who was found on this planet. The first human was made not to reproduce, but had all the knowledge of it's (creator).

It must have become dangerous to the manters when the slacve had the same knowledge.

So a new human was created, this time with lesser knowledge and being able to reproduce. In time the humans outnumbered the aliens. Some of the aliens () wanted to teach the humans, but it was forbidden, but they did anyway, and the first revolution took place. The humans were then thrown out of the main. "garden?".


In time the Lemurian culture appeared. Soon there was division among the aliens. This resulted in a new colony being developed, Atlantis. The humans were used as slaves (as they still are today). The Atlanteans basically believed in fittest of the fittest survive.
The Lemurians were the help and love thy nieghbor type.

In time there was a war, and the forbidden weapon was used by the Atlanteans. Yes people, the atom bomb. They had this weapon for so long, but it was forbidden to ever use it, they had probably forgot why.
Anyway it destroyed both civilisations. (so called myth of atlantis).

Later a new civilisation emerged Sumer. They had all the knowledge stored so the renewal of the civilisation was not too hard. From Sumer came Egypt ruled by a son and Indus Valley ruled by a daughter of the king in Sumer.

So Egypt and Indus Valley tried to steal the stored knowledge from Sumer and soon there was all out war again. The atom bomb that landed on sumer also almost completely destroyed the indus valley and egypt by radiation.

Today the atlanteans have the upper hand, and again used an atomic bomb on Hiroshimo. They practice and orchestrate genocide on whole countries they genetically assume to be of lemurian descent.

And all the time they keep the most of the masses subdued by religion, although this has a nother purpose.

They are waiting for their king to re-appear, they know exactly when and are preparing, for every time the king comes there is catastrophe on earth. sometimes less sometimes great, so they are carrying mankinds knowledge up to the space station, and they intend to try and save the elite there untill they can return to earth, knowledge is also being buried underground.

They know of the recurring catastrophes thet earth endures, this is why prophesy and such is usually so accurate, for these things are recurring about every 3600 years.

Anyway there is enough information there for one to carefully piece some sort of theory togrther.

JUST remember, There is no proof that ANY of it is right, but what else do we have but our analytical brain to try and decipher the truths (plural) from what wre know and discover, and even then no two people will ever see the same, for each mind is different.

So now i say i worship no god or man. That is my philosopy. For if you have a god or king or hierachy, then you need lesser people or slaves to look up to this god, king president, prime minister etc.

TIME for mankind to remove all gods and kings etc and try to make this planet united, for what is to come in the near future.

There will be othere who come to earth, and we will have to defend earth, if we are not united as Earthpeople, no more nations as such, we will be easilly defeated.

My view - there will probably be opposing views, but that is good, for when one stops thinking and finding things out for themselves, instead of just taking it from out parents and their parents because "it has always been so", one might as well bury their head in the sand.

Peace humankind.
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