Hilbert's Hotel

Diskussionsforum zur Unendlichkeit: Theismus, Atheismus, Primzahlen, Unsterblichkeit, das Universum...
Discussing Infinity: theism and atheism, prime numbers, immortality, cosmology, philosophy...

Gamestudio Links
Zorro Links
Newest Posts
[ALL STYLES] 2D Videogame Artist (pixel, vector, painted)
by DesixStudios
47 minutes 1 second ago
Aum119 is ready
by jumpman
Today at 19:38
Video control
by middleagechinese
Today at 10:49
Urgent: Conitec & Partners
by jcl
Today at 10:09
Lite_c library. first part up.
by Aku_Aku
Today at 09:36
AUM Magazine
Latest Screens
RPG PARTY
Triton Wing now available on Steam
AckCon'17: Lotter vs The World
Triton Wing
ZeaL
Who's Online
24 registered (Ch40zzC0d3r, Hredot, Dico, DriftWood, DesixStudios, jumpman, Hlopetz, alibaba, Denn15, 2 invisible), 472 Guests and 11 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Hale75, victrades, htj, anufriyev, imnewbie2
17780 Registered Users
Page 1 of 54 1 2 3 ... 53 54 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#68771 - 03/31/06 15:27 Wissenschaft und Schöpfung / Science and Creation *****
jcl Offline

Chief Engineer

Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 25813
Loc: Frankfurt
This thread is for followers of Creationism or Intelligent Design to explain their position.

However, the discussion shall take place with scientific arguments only. I think there will never be an agreement about whether the bible contradicts evolution and the Big Bang, or not. So, no "bible" arguments please.

Also, it does not matter for the discussion how many or how few scientists take Creationism seriously. So, please no "mainstream science" arguments either.

And, for obvious reasons, please refrain from "ad hominem" arguments in this thread.

This thread shall be just about what we can derive from observations in nature.

I'm opening the discussion with a little poll about the age of the universe, the age of the earth, and the becoming of life.


What do you think about creation?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 03/31/06 15:27
View the results of this poll.

Top
#68772 - 03/31/06 15:35 Re: Wissenschaft und Schöpfung / Science and Creat [Re: jcl]
ello Offline
Senior Expert

Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 8939
Loc: planet.earth
maybe we need to clear up, if natural evolution includes impacts from outer space object, which i would call influenced evolution

Top
#68773 - 03/31/06 15:37 Re: Science and Creation [Re: ello]
jcl Offline

Chief Engineer

Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 25813
Loc: Frankfurt
No, natural evolution does not include impacts from life carrying space objects. That would be 'influenced evolution', because the impact theories do not explain how life came into existence in the first place.

Top
#68774 - 03/31/06 16:37 Re: Science and Creation [Re: jcl]
Grimber Offline
Expert

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 4959
Loc: US
i think one of the important aspects to deal with between science and creation
is in dating methodologies.

http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/2437/radiodte.htm

this artical here discusses that very subject of radio isotope dating methods and creationist arguments against the results of such methods. ( as well as many places where creationists have shot themselves in the foot in thier own arguments)

Top
#68775 - 03/31/06 17:08 Re: Science and Creation [Re: Grimber]
Matt_Aufderheide Offline
Expert

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 4117
Quote:

No, I do not know what drives creationists, but I would be interested to learn it. I know many religious people but not a single creationist. I've opened another thread for continuing this discussion in a more orderly way.




There is really one chain of reasoning, and here it is:

a) They believe that evolution and an ancient earth goes against the literal biblical story of creation (it does).

b) They reason that if the Bible is wrong on that score, it may be wrong on all scores.

c) if the Bible is wrong, then there is no God, no Jesus, and no immortality in Heaven. Man dies and that's it. To many people this is unacceptable, and would cause insanity.

This is why poeple argue against evolutionary theory...it takes away their hope, the meaning in their lives.

Top
#68776 - 03/31/06 17:44 Re: Science and Creation [Re: Matt_Aufderheide]
jcl Offline

Chief Engineer

Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 25813
Loc: Frankfurt
Maybe. But this thread is not about belief, as you can not discuss or argue about belief. It's about _scientific_ arguments of creationism. Young earth creationists claim, for instance, that an earth age of 6000 years is more likely than 4.5 billion years - let's hear their reasons.

Top
#68777 - 03/31/06 18:25 Re: Science and Creation [Re: jcl]
A.Russell Offline
Expert

Registered: 03/15/03
Posts: 4427
Loc: Japan
Ahem, with respect Johann, doesn't that make the argument one-sided?

If the creationists/IDers are not allowed to brandish their dusty old books and make wild, unqualified statements then how are they going to prove anything? The only "scientific" arguments will be refuting scientific methods. Their resons for which, far from being scientific, will take us back to book brandishing and wild statements.

The scientific position is already the result thousands of years worth of observations and know facts. There is a mountain of scientific research to back it up. So, by your criteria, "this thread shall be about scientific arguments only" the scientists have already won.
_________________________
Pachinko a Go Go! Super Excite!

Top
#68778 - 03/31/06 19:28 Re: Science and Creation [Re: jcl]
Matt_Aufderheide Offline
Expert

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 4117
Quote:

Maybe. But this thread is not about belief because you can not discuss or argue about belief. It's about _scientific_ arguments of creationism. Young earth creationists claim, for instance, that an earth age of 6000 years is more likely than 4.5 billion years - let's hear their reasons.




You may not have been asking what I think are their reasons, but it's the truth regardless.

They dont have any scientific reasons. Their argument is purely emotional. The psuedoscience arguments they do come up with are transparent, and not worth taking your time to look at.

The simple fact is, they say the Earth is 6000 years old becasue that's what Archbishop Usher said, because he calculated it from the Biblical generation lists.

They have no scientific basis for their beliefs, they just pretend there is.
_________________________
Sphere Engine--the premier A6 graphics plugin.

Top
#68779 - 03/31/06 21:01 Re: Science and Creation [Re: Matt_Aufderheide]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:


c) if the Bible is wrong, then there is no God, no Jesus, and no immortality in Heaven. Man dies and that's it. To many people this is unacceptable, and would cause insanity.

This is why poeple argue against evolutionary theory...it takes away their hope, the meaning in their lives.




It's fine to argue against Creationism, but the above seems like a backbone argument that's really getting old.

For one thing its prideful. Some people are weak, some would go insane, but I wouldn't, I'm above that foolishness. But for a human with a limited existence, what is to be gained by giving up hope in an afterlife? Either the person wants to make themselves miserable, or they're just priding themselves.

But the main thing is that people do not see an afterlife as the meaning of their lives. Although the majority of Americans say they believe in an afterlife, how much does the average American even think or care about the future? Look at the meager retirements and savings. Average savings in the US was actually negative last year. People really just want to have fun in the moment. And since the Bible has plenty of rules against seemingly fun stuff, most people would rather all of it not be true. It's easier just to hang it all. People don't want the idea of judgement or of not being in control of their lives. The idea of there being a hell and from that a moral accountability could easily "takes away the fun in their lives."

So my point is really just that their are as many reasons to be emotionally opposed to the idea of an afterlife as an idea of emptiness. And since one approach requires a lot more discipline and hardship (not to mention now ridicule), I think the average human now greatly favors one over the other...

Sorry this was totally emotional and not scientific, but then neither was the original post.

Top
#68780 - 03/31/06 23:50 Re: Science and Creation
Matt_Aufderheide Offline
Expert

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 4117
?
I was just explaining why people are against evolutionary theory, not why you should or shouldnt believe in an afterlife. The point is, that certain poeple are unimaginative, and have difficulty dealing with uncertainty.

They are literal-minded. The Catholic Church for instance, has long since embraced scientific evolution, because they are able to realize that bible cant be taken literally. if you take EVERYTHING in the bible literally, you run into all sorts of problems. First of all, it has many contradiction inherent in the text.

I'm sick of going on and on about this .. In all seriousness, I think most of the problems we face with creationists are about ignorance, and poor critical thinking. This is probably due to lack of education, unimaginative parents and childhood peers/teachers, and a general anti-intellectualism in the United States in particular.

I suppose there is no point in arguing about this on an internet forum, where half the poeple are lunatics. I just cant help myself, because it reflects a wider problem in America. There is a sort of retrograde madness afflicting many poeple here. They have a serious agenda, which is attempting to eliminate good science from education, to restrict people's individual rights (such as the right to have an abortion), to destroy the barrier of seperation of church and state, and so on.

Perhaps there is no more point in trying to reason with them, or educate them. It may be that there will need to be laws put in place that will finally end some this. Perhaps certain actions will have to be taken in the future, such as deprogramming, closing churches, shutting down TV evangelists, freezing accounts for large "mega-ministries", revoking broadcast licenses for religious TV stations, radio, etc.
_________________________
Sphere Engine--the premier A6 graphics plugin.

Top
Page 1 of 54 1 2 3 ... 53 54 >


Moderator:  jcl, Lukas, old_bill, Spirit 

Kompaktes Wörterbuch des UnendlichenCompact Dictionary of the Infinite