Hilbert's Hotel

Diskussionsforum zur Unendlichkeit: Theismus, Atheismus, Primzahlen, Unsterblichkeit, das Universum...
Discussing Infinity: theism and atheism, prime numbers, immortality, cosmology, philosophy...

Gamestudio Links
Zorro Links
Newest Posts
DeepLearn: How to add more signals? (> 20 signals)
by Se7en
Today at 04:15
Deselect contract and trade with the underlying
by GreenBoat
Yesterday at 19:19
What are you working on?
by rayp
Yesterday at 15:00
Error 047 - Not enough bars even though data is available
by Dalla
Yesterday at 14:39
Double sided shader that works with PSSM
by sivan
Yesterday at 12:52
AUM Magazine
Latest Screens
Triton Wing
ZeaL
Computer Repair Simulator
Collider (working title)
Space Rider
Who's Online
20 registered (3run, jyd, ibne, Enayn, Ayumi, Dalla, firecrest, kmerlo, boatman, Calli, 1 invisible), 439 Guests and 7 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
axukype, Se7en, AndrewEn, SnowLeopard, bmokk
17656 Registered Users
Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#63666 - 04/13/06 21:51 Re: Das Anthropische Prinzip / The Universe Parado ***** [Re: Irish_Farmer]
Anonymous
Unregistered


"but then why is there even time at all"

I think you have to realize that theres a chance that there is no real reason for anything. We tend to ask why so we understand purpose, which gives "meaning" to things. If you beleive in God, then there is no real reason why he created the earth and mankind. You can find meaning in God, and thats fine, but truly there is no reason why he started existence. If you say "we were made to praise him", then why does he need mortals to praise him? If you beleive in evolution, then theres also a chance that our existance isnt "right". We place evolution as a means to advance a species toward a better form, but for what? Multiply and die? Whats that do for anything?

Irish restated JCL's original post was asking if coniditions hadnt been right. Whats right? Not to sound clinton-ey but, whats the definition of right? Having childeren and going to school, church? Living, dying? Maybe you dying last year was "right" instead of living til now.

Top
#63667 - 04/13/06 22:01 Re: Das Anthropische Prinzip / The Universe Parado [Re: Irish_Farmer]
Doug Offline
Senior Expert

Registered: 07/23/00
Posts: 8973
Loc: Bay Area
If you ask the right scientists, there are some REALLY interesting theories on "where all this stuff came from". The problem is, as far as I know they are all REALLY hard to prove.

I think for most scientist, where all this came from is interesting but not very practical. So you're not going to see as much time spent on it as, say, how suns are made.

Top
#63668 - 04/14/06 00:11 Re: Das Anthropische Prinzip / The Universe Parado [Re: Doug]
Irish_Farmer Offline
User

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 718
Loc: Wisconsin
Quote:

I think you have to realize that theres a chance that there is no real reason for anything.




That's why I find the subject so interesting. There really is no reason anything should exist at all. The universe itself is just one of many things that defy reason, like our consciousness. That doesn't mean that ignoring it makes any sense. That's not to say that you shouldn't ignore it, I don't care what you do. But I see it this way, something does exist, but just as well nothing needs to exist in the first place. Nothing at all, God, our universe, matter, time, anything. So why does it? I'll never know the answer, but it tickles me the right way to reflect on these things for a few minutes every now and then.

Saying I'm trying to add meaning or purpose to something doesn't change the paradox.

Quote:

there are some REALLY interesting theories on "where all this stuff came from"




Do they all involve laws being suspended for one miraculous event? In fact, scientifically, the creation of the universe represents a miracle, which I believe is unavoidable. But if you have references to scientists saying something contrary to this, I'd love to see them. I'll probably research it myself later.

Quote:

I think for most scientist, where all this came from is interesting but not very practical.




True. I suppose for me it seems more practical in understanding the nature of the creator, but not everyone has the same beliefs as me of course.
_________________________
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."

Top
#63669 - 04/14/06 03:07 Re: Das Anthropische Prinzip / The Universe Parado [Re: Irish_Farmer]
Matt_Aufderheide Offline
Expert

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 4114
A problem with this kind of thinking is the assumption that the "universe" was "created", quite apart from whatever was the agency of creation.

First what do you define as the Universe? just everything that can be seen including the visible galaxies and stars?

Our galaxy is a part of a galactic cluster, which is turn part of a galactic megacluster. There are even larger possible structures out there. The point is that the so-called universe that we see, and it is indeed expanding from a hypothetical point, may only be one small part of a far larger macrocosm.

Perhaps there are many "creation points". In other words I see no physical reason why there cant be another giant supercluster of galaxies expanding from ANOTHER point, somewhere far away. Perhaps one day our "universe" will collide with another one.

In any case, there is no reason to suppose that the matter or energy we see was "created" out of the void, when in fact there are certainly deep energy structures we dont yet percieve.

The Platonists believed in the great "one-ness" of being. Perhaps all being is one continuous stream, one wavefront, whatever.
_________________________
Sphere Engine--the premier A6 graphics plugin.

Top
#63670 - 04/14/06 03:10 Re: Das Anthropische Prinzip / The Universe Parado [Re: Matt_Aufderheide]
Irish_Farmer Offline
User

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 718
Loc: Wisconsin
Quote:

In any case, there is no reason to suppose that the matter or energy we see was "created" out of the void, when in fact there are certainly deep energy structures we dont yet percieve.




Like I said, all science can do is call for a more primitive form that still has no explanation. You're just postponing the question. If there is no reason for this 'deep energy structure' to exist, then why does it? What I'm saying is that nothing really needs to exist at all. There's no reason for it. But it does. You can't postpone the explanation by trying to get more and more basic.
_________________________
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."

Top
#63671 - 04/14/06 03:11 Re: Das Anthropische Prinzip / The Universe Parado [Re: Irish_Farmer]
Matt_Aufderheide Offline
Expert

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 4114
read the line below that one, there where i explain a possible answer.
_________________________
Sphere Engine--the premier A6 graphics plugin.

Top
#63672 - 04/14/06 08:38 Re: Das Anthropische Prinzip / The Universe Parado [Re: Matt_Aufderheide]
Irish_Farmer Offline
User

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 718
Loc: Wisconsin
Quote:

The Platonists believed in the great "one-ness" of being. Perhaps all being is one continuous stream, one wavefront, whatever.




You're referring to this? This just raises more questions.
_________________________
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."

Top
#63673 - 04/14/06 14:37 Re: Das Anthropische Prinzip / The Universe Parado [Re: Irish_Farmer]
jcl Offline

Chief Engineer

Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 25544
Loc: Frankfurt
Quote:

Like I said, all science can do is call for a more primitive form that still has no explanation. You're just postponing the question. If there is no reason for this 'deep energy structure' to exist, then why does it? What I'm saying is that nothing really needs to exist at all. There's no reason for it. But it does. You can't postpone the explanation by trying to get more and more basic.




What are you suggesting with this - that science should not try to find answers and explanations by going more and more basic?

Going basic is a science principle. Newton reduced the movement of celestial objects to simple laws of gravity and inertia. Einstein reduced the laws of gravity and inertia to properties of space and time. Possibly a future string theory will reduce the initial properties of space and time to a geometric model, an 11 dimension hyperspace that permanently spawns new universes with different physics constants.

That we don't know the mechanisms yet of the first 1^-43 seconds of the Big Bang does absolutely not mean that we'll never know. And it certainly does not mean that we shouldn't go more and more basic.

Likely we'll find one day that our universe is not a coincidence, but a necessity.

Top
#63674 - 04/14/06 19:48 Re: Das Anthropische Prinzip / The Universe Parado [Re: jcl]
Irish_Farmer Offline
User

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 718
Loc: Wisconsin
I never said they shouldn't go more and more basic. They should discover all they can. What I'm saying is that eventually they're going to have to accept that no matter how much more basic the beginning gets, it has no real scientific explanation for existing.

So discover away. You still can't answer the real question. Let me put it this way, they're not really discovering the beginnings of the universe, per se, they're just understanding more and more the nature of the universe. There's a difference.
_________________________
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."

Top
#63675 - 04/14/06 20:17 Re: Das Anthropische Prinzip / The Universe Parado [Re: Irish_Farmer]
zazang Offline
User

Registered: 10/04/03
Posts: 702
I agree perfectly with Irish Farmer and JCL both.We can keep on going deeper and deeper but we can always add a Why to anything we explain.Newton discovered gravity
but what causes gravity ?.Evetually it seems we have to accept that its the inherent property of that entity(like space or time)
It goes on and the rabbit hole
unfortunately never seems to end...but yes,it does not mean that we stop thinking and as JCL says that maybe universe was a necessity..such a cool thought to ponder while I go to sleep

Maybe such questions can be explained with a "circular" reasoning..like A is because of B and B is because of A...atleast this way the questions will end...
just a wild thought



Top
Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >


Moderator:  jcl, Lukas, old_bill, Spirit 

Kompaktes Wörterbuch des UnendlichenCompact Dictionary of the Infinite