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Discussion on breaking genre rule and the clone culture #456515
11/26/15 22:20
11/26/15 22:20

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Malice
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Please give your opinions on staying with-in genre types or breaking out of genres in games.
It seems that players really like type/genre games. The term “Rouge/Rouge-like/Rouge-lite” are all over the place. Nevertheless, I am not focus on one term. While it may be impossible to escape the known genres of games, my point is that players seem to like games that are minor variations on a game type/genre.
A designer can add features and bend or selectively change the genre rules, but only to an extent. You would think that genres had limited core rules and that a designer can build whatever on top. However, this does not seem true.
Please let us exclude series games (Assassins Creed 1-X, ect.) in which a base design is only meant to be modified small amounts and setting and story changes are the larger iteration factor. Are designers forced too not deviate from the type to greatly? Adding or modifying one or two elements is ok. Massively breaking the type would result in wide rejection by game players.
I have a theory, players select genre by preference and earned-skill. Earned-skill being a familiarity and time earned talent using the rules of a genre. In other words, players, play genres they are good at and avoid stepping into other genres were they must start over and climb the earned-skill latter again. Of course, it is just a theory.
To me this helps explain the almost-clone like creation of games. Stepping out of the mill can create stand out game that explode in market sales. It can give birth to new genres or sub-genres. However, more often than not, it seems to kill a game.
Do you believe that there are rules that cannot be broken? What would those be? Do you believe players are willing to learn games that change the very core rules? On the other hand, do you feel that forcing the players too far out of the well-treaded path will result in game rejection? Do you feel games can break a core mechanic, without breaking other genres cores, resulting in a failed attempt to hold to a genre ( I think adding the gravity power of a.k.a JJ and BUM, but holding on to the core platformer that the new mechanic never really fits into.)?

Thanks for the feedback
Mal

Re: Discussion on breaking genre rule and the clone culture [Re: ] #456594
11/30/15 13:05
11/30/15 13:05
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From what I have seen copy 80% and innovate on 20% seems like a popular rule (ps: 20% seems very low but it is pretty noticable). I quess it makes sense, if I would start with a new game I dont want it to take hours to learn the game's manual and am drawn when I see an gameplay element in a game that I really liked before in an other game but also dont want to play the same thing over and over again. Ofcourse this differs probably alot between people. E.g. some find X3 (the space game) one of the best in the space sim genre, and others find it to be to much of a hassle to learn. I think it mainly comes to down to whether you want to focus on a niche market or not.

Re: Discussion on breaking genre rule and the clone culture [Re: Reconnoiter] #456604
11/30/15 18:57
11/30/15 18:57

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That's a shame, because what you describe , is like taking the real life game of soccer and creating 10 versions with small rule changes. It would be crazy to watch a tv channel of this sport. There is bumper soccer and half field soccer and soccer with a moat in the middle, ect. This makes sense for wanting to change play but not the game. One week I might play soccer, then next golf. Yes both take a lot of learning, and both give a great play experience.

It's almost protection of the players ego, It's like driving a race car on the same track every day but making small changes to the track. He who drives the track most is inherently better than any one driving once a month.. Then add the physical abilities to boot.

I was a game designer long before I touched a computer, I was a 80'd kid, we created outside play games all the time. The ones that we disliked were the ones that only changed our last game by some small margin (20%).

Re: Discussion on breaking genre rule and the clone culture [Re: ] #456618
12/01/15 11:02
12/01/15 11:02
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But 20% is more than it seems (it can be 1 totally unique gameplay element, e.g. with Painkiller (2004) tarot cards and demonform). Besides ones a few games copy each other succesfully and keep changing ~20% (/ +- 20%), you will get totally new games fairly quickly considering how fast new games come out. Than ofcourse there are a lesser amount of games that innovate alot which either fail (C&C 4, besides the fact whether one find it bad or good) or become a success (Dune 2, Deus Ex 1, Mount&Blade 1?).

Last edited by Reconnoiter; 12/01/15 11:05.
Re: Discussion on breaking genre rule and the clone culture [Re: Reconnoiter] #456623
12/01/15 16:31
12/01/15 16:31
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Quote:
That's a shame, because what you describe , is like taking the real life game of soccer and creating 10 versions with small rule changes. It would be crazy to watch a tv channel of this sport
, now that I read this again, its funny that you mention this. Since the Chinese invented centuries ago a ball sport which has been copied / cloned over time (and perhaps they weren't even the first crazy ). Is soccer all that different and unique compared to sports it has been influenced by? And e.g. American Footbal vs Rugby? Some of the fightning sports are somewhat similar to each other too.

Last edited by Reconnoiter; 12/01/15 16:32.
Re: Discussion on breaking genre rule and the clone culture [Re: Reconnoiter] #456630
12/01/15 18:02
12/01/15 18:02

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Quote:
Is soccer all that different and unique compared to sports it has been influenced by? And e.g. American Football vs Rugby? Some of the fighting sports are somewhat similar to each other too.

Actually I meant for the broader relation , soccer to American Football, Boxing to golf. Rugby -v- Football is a iteration, not the creation of a game. Rugby -v- golf is! Video games should try breaking out like this. Otherwise it iphone4 to iPhone6 -- Wow iteration! Even Intel understand there needs to be
both tick and tock.
Quote:
(and perhaps they weren't even the first crazy ).

I can't be sure about who was first, however if at the same time, the Mayans has a version of gladiator death pit ,soccer/basketball - soccer with a wall mounted hoop goal.... So we can see great difference way beyond the 20%'ish ideas.

Re: Discussion on breaking genre rule and the clone culture [Re: ] #456632
12/01/15 19:27
12/01/15 19:27
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Quote:
Video games should try breaking out like this.
, but isn't that where genre's are for?

For example if you compare sports to video games, you could say golf is a different genre than soccer. From that perspective, games are as varied as sports if not more (/I think).

Last edited by Reconnoiter; 12/01/15 19:27.
Re: Discussion on breaking genre rule and the clone culture [Re: ] #456633
12/01/15 19:33
12/01/15 19:33
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I think there is no single answer to that question. But your observation is right : if you provide something that players are familiar with and then you add a twist to it, the game becomes suddenly appealing.

Take PREY for example: a mediocre shooter, but with portals and walkways where you shoot enemies upside down! - WHOAW!

I, for example, hate classic shooters. They are dumb as f***and I f****** hate those f****** skilled pro-players which don't let me play for just one second after I spawned - I don't get the fun in that.

However, that twist in PREY or the horror story in FEAR made me play the games (and the stencil shadows, they were gorgeous!). Or the Suffering or Max Payne: great story, f****** terrifying monsters and über-cool moves while pulling the trigger.. that was fun!

So in the end the customer picks what seems to be fun.

Last edited by HeelX; 12/01/15 19:34.
Re: Discussion on breaking genre rule and the clone culture [Re: HeelX] #456634
12/01/15 23:45
12/01/15 23:45

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^--- This whole post makes me smile!


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