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Re: The true meaning [Re: MasterQ32] #447580
12/20/14 18:06
12/20/14 18:06
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AlbertoT Offline OP
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heat does not transport mass but heat can create mass
If a body absorbes heat then its mass increases
Does it mean that heat can create matter ?
If not
How do you explain the claim
" mass is measure of the amount of matter of a body "

Is such claim maybe false ? ( nope it is true )

Re: The true meaning [Re: AlbertoT] #447582
12/20/14 18:18
12/20/14 18:18
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Kartoffel Offline
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Originally Posted By: AlbertoT
heat does not transport mass but heat can create mass
If a body absorbes heat then its mass increases
Does it mean that heat can create matter ?
If not
How do you explain the claim
" mass is measure of the amount of matter of a body "

Is such claim maybe false ? ( nope it is true )


Heat cannot create mass. If anything, it can be transformed into mass (if you mean this) but how should that be possible?
If an object absorbs heat it's simply heating up by taking the heat from something else which can for example cause a change in volume, but that doesn't mean that the mass changes.

Also, afaik mass is a property of matter, although I don't know if it's proportional to matter (if you double the matter the mass doubles aswell)


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Re: The true meaning [Re: Kartoffel] #447584
12/20/14 21:53
12/20/14 21:53
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AlbertoT Offline OP
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Yes, it does
The temperature of a body is proportional to the intensity of vibration of its molecules
If a body absorbs heat the kinetic energy of its moecules increase thus the mass of the body increases ,too
of course the mass difference is not measurable because of the conversion factor c^2 but it is not null

Re: The true meaning [Re: AlbertoT] #447589
12/20/14 22:11
12/20/14 22:11
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Kartoffel Offline
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I don't see the connection between thermal vibration of molecules and an increment in mass.

Edit: and I dont't see how the kinectic energy of molecules should change the mass of an object.

sorry but I just don't get what you're trying to say.

Last edited by Kartoffel; 12/20/14 22:14.

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Re: The true meaning [Re: Kartoffel] #447595
12/21/14 10:23
12/21/14 10:23
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it is what the equation claims

If mass and energy are the same stuff
the higher the energy the higher the mass

Re: The true meaning [Re: AlbertoT] #447597
12/21/14 10:51
12/21/14 10:51
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Kartoffel Offline
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no. It says that mass and energy are equal but they're not the same.

For example, if an object has the mass m and the temperature T.

The energy of both together would be:
E(T) (thermal energy) + E(m) (mass expressed as energy, which theoretically is true because of E = m * c²)

Heating up this object would cause an increase in thermal energy E(T) and thus the total amount of energy increases aswell. But it's not gonna change anything at it's mass.

Although I'm pretty sure that this statement is wrong: you could see mass as a different type of energy, like kinetic, thermal, electrostatic, etc.
Just because the amount of one of these energies increases doesn't mean that the others increase aswell.

Last edited by Kartoffel; 12/21/14 11:04. Reason: typos everywhere

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Re: The true meaning [Re: Kartoffel] #447607
12/21/14 17:45
12/21/14 17:45
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of course the mass of a body increases by rising it temperature
Einstein wrote

Ist die Trägheit eines Körpers von seinem Energieinhalt abhängig?"

The original equation was

dM = L /c^2

where dM stands for difference of mass and L for electromagnetic energy (Lebenskraft)
So if a body absorbs /emits a radiation even a thermal radiation then it gains / loses mass

Re: The true meaning [Re: AlbertoT] #447637
12/23/14 00:12
12/23/14 00:12
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Ok, in my opinion you must go through the following steps if you want to grasp the true meaning of the equation

#1 Before Newton people assumed that matter and weight were the same stuff, weight being a constant on the surface of the earth

#2 Newton defined momentum of a material body as p = mv
From experience the total momentum of an isolated system is a constant thus
F = dp/dt = ma ,
The mass m , being a constant, became a synonimous with matter and still it is in our daily conversation

#3 in the 19th century it was already known that also electromagnetic radiations have momentum
A beam of light can make a small wheel rotating
The light momentum is p = L/c
Where L is the energy of the radiation
This was an amazing discovery since momentum was supposed to be a mass related parameter

#4 Einstein and some others claimed :
If a material body absorbs a radiation than its momentum turns into mass given by momentum divided by speed i.e

dM = L /c^2

This is the original equation where "m" is the Newtonian inertial mass
Mass, being a variable, can not be considerd any longer as a measure of the amount of matter of a body


#5 Einstein made a step futher
In the theory of relativiy Einstein demonstrated the total energy E is the sum of two addendum : the momentum and an universal constant
If so even a massless entity such as light can exert a pressure on a surface(the spinning wheel) but on the other hand a material body has also an intrinsic non variable property which is entitled to be considered the "matter "
This parameter is the rest mass given by

E = Moc^2

#6 The confusion come frome the fact that people do not distinguish m from m0
when you claim that mass can be turned into energy you speak of m (Inertial mass)
Whe you cliam that mass and matter are the same stuff you speak of m0 ( the rest mass)

This at least is my understanding of the equation
In

Re: The true meaning [Re: AlbertoT] #448150
01/21/15 16:17
01/21/15 16:17
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Apparently Einstein could not finish the formula completely because the other two forces were not incorporated. The Strong and the Weak Forces need to be today incorporated with the Gravity and Electro-Magnetic forces.


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Re: The true meaning [Re: pararealist] #448162
01/22/15 04:57
01/22/15 04:57
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Temperature isn't a single string or atom, it is a macroscopic phenomenon.
If a stand alone string/atom moves into a higher energy state it must absorb photon, in order to reach a lower state it must discharge photon. That process does change the mass of an object. However, the differences are nuances, insignificant small.

It would be funny if temperature would make a significant difference in mass and weight.
- As soon as you lighten a match, your hand smashes to the ground, because it suddenly became t0o heavy- grin

Last edited by Random; 01/22/15 05:02.


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