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Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: Superku] #399942
04/23/12 22:38
04/23/12 22:38
Joined: Jul 2001
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HeelX Offline
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Sure, here is the link to the PDF: http://www2.disney.co.uk/cms_res/blackrockstudio/pdf/Foliage_Rendering_in_Pure.pdf

On this page you can find the slides and some videos, too: http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&link=Siggraph_09

Quote:
What do you mean with "primitives" in this case and what exactly is not supported?


Triangles are basic primitives and the engine does not sort the triangles for you. The problem is that the Z buffer prevents from drawing pixels that are behind things that have already been drawn. Generally, that's pretty convenient - but when the thing in front is translucent, you NEED to see things that are behind it.

The first fix - upon which all the other fixes depend is to make sure you draw all your opaque polygons before you draw any translucent ones --- remember PASS_SOLID? Thats JCL magic. And that solves most of the problems. The only thing that remains is when you try to render one translucent polygon behind another, though, for many applications there are so few translucent objects that this is "good enough", but for forests and grass, well, you all know what happens and how it looks like...

The next thing that most people consider is to sort the translucent polygons as a function of Z depth. To be perfect - even sorting them isn't enough. You may have to split polygons up on-the-fly to get a perfect rendering. Imagine a large triangle of a tree entity intersecting another large triangle of another tree entity... ouch. There are so many cases of intersecting polygons that it is impossible to render them properly without splitting up at least on polygon. Worse still, if you decide to split and sort polygons - what key do you sort on? The center of the polygon? The nearest vertex? The furthest? You *will* get errors for any acceptable realtime algorithm. AFAIK, Gamestudio has no algorithm like this implemented - for good reasons, which are Simplicity and Speed. Especially nowadays everyone is rendering tons of polygons each frame, more than once maybe... so, it makes more sense to use postprocessing solutions, like the one I mentioned above.

Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: HeelX] #399943
04/23/12 22:59
04/23/12 22:59
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,861
Kiel (Germany)
Superku Offline
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Superku  Offline
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Thanks!
Yes, that's true, I was just wondering what you meant with primitives. For my side-scrolling game I normally use a different technique for transparent entities, I don't use entity.alpha. Instead, I render the entity in solid mode, suppress it in the default camera view and grab the pixel at the projected position. It's not "real" transparency but I like the effect (http://www.superku.de/sk_transparency.jpg) and no polygon issues are visible.


"Falls das Resultat nicht einfach nur dermassen gut aussieht, sollten Sie nochmal von vorn anfangen..." - Manual

Check out my new game: Pogostuck: Rage With Your Friends
Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: Superku] #399951
04/24/12 07:08
04/24/12 07:08
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 217
Italy
PietroNifosi Offline
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PietroNifosi  Offline
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Italy
Thanks for explaining HeelX, what's up with SSAO? Have you been using the Wastelands assets I sent you last year?


Dear Fans, to celebrate our 500.000 downloads,
Evhacon 2 is now FREE TO PLAY on Amazon Underground!
HD Version: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071FKSVG2
LD Version (Optimized for lower devices): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0719TXFJN
Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: PietroNifosi] #399966
04/24/12 12:27
04/24/12 12:27
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HeelX Offline
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Originally Posted By: PietroNifosi
what's up with SSAO? Have you been using the Wastelands assets I sent you last year?


Hey Pietro! I didn't worked on SSAO since the 0.6 release for various reasons. I really like you artwork but I didn't used your assets, though. I have the strong belief that if I release my solution for free to the users, all contents (especially the demos) should be open, too - don't take it personal, I really appreciated that you shared the stuff with me. I considered to make an industrial- or a forest-demo or something with the Dexsoft assets, too, but I found the idea silly to put everything into resources, so I skipped that.

Last edited by HeelX; 04/24/12 12:28.
Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: HeelX] #400087
04/25/12 16:28
04/25/12 16:28
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 655
to your left
BoH_Havoc Offline OP
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BoH_Havoc  Offline OP
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Nice postings about alpha problems in games there HeelX! laugh

The main reason why i'm not using anything else than alphatesting at the moment is Shade-C using a deferred approach. In the past it was using deferred lighting and now it's using deferred shading. Thus implementing soft alpha values is kind of hard (not impossible).
Currently i have planned to use auto stippling in combination with slightly altered FXAA or MLAA. This would give 4 Alpha values which can fade into each other because of the FXAA/MLAA. The downside of this is that you have to activae FXAA/MLAA of course. But "at least" this will also give you nice anti-aliasing besides removing the stippling pattern. wink Plus it's pretty fast (compared to "normal" AA techniques that is...but then again what's normal these days).
The way the Pure guys are doing it is a nice approach but also has it's problems (if there are multiple alpha materials behind each other, you will get hard edges where the alpha materials overlap). Not saying it's a bad approach though!


If you guys know any other methods to get around the deferred shading <-> smooth alpha problem, post them! I already have a lot of shader papers, but one can never have enough wink


Shade-C EVO Lite-C Shader Framework
Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: BoH_Havoc] #400512
05/02/12 16:06
05/02/12 16:06
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 217
Italy
PietroNifosi Offline
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Posts: 217
Italy
Havoc I have noticed something in Shade-C EVO.
Whenever I load up a scenario I have a certain framerate depending on its complexity, right after a few seconds (or a minute or so) my framerate drops down regardless of the complexity that the camera is facing.
A few seconds later the framerate goes back to normal.
And again after a few seconds-minutes.
Do you have any idea what is happening?

PS = could you give us an estimate for the next EVO release? it-s been more then a year now frown


Dear Fans, to celebrate our 500.000 downloads,
Evhacon 2 is now FREE TO PLAY on Amazon Underground!
HD Version: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071FKSVG2
LD Version (Optimized for lower devices): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0719TXFJN
Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: PietroNifosi] #400538
05/03/12 01:44
05/03/12 01:44
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Posts: 655
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BoH_Havoc Offline OP
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BoH_Havoc  Offline OP
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Quote:

Havoc I have noticed something in Shade-C EVO.
Whenever I load up a scenario I have a certain framerate depending on its complexity, right after a few seconds (or a minute or so) my framerate drops down regardless of the complexity that the camera is facing.
A few seconds later the framerate goes back to normal.
And again after a few seconds-minutes.
Do you have any idea what is happening?


This might be some sort of memory leak or the garbage collector going crazy (because there's too much garbage...). I had similar problems in the past and did my best to fix it. So far the only reason why my framerate drops again is because of my gfx-card getting way to hot (as soon as i start blowing at my laptop the fps go up again :D). So i GUESS it's fixed in the version i'm working on at the moment. *fingers crossed*

Quote:
PS = could you give us an estimate for the next EVO release? it-s been more then a year now


I have PLANNED to integrate the newest version into CSiS this month, so there is a CHANCE that i MIGHT release it somewhen in June. But don't count on it.
Sorry for the "when it's done" stuff, but that's how it is. I won't give any more potential release dates as i can't stick to them anyway... grin


Have look at my to-do list and see why it's taking so long wink
### = done
+++ = partially working/working on it. Essential for next release
* = should be in next release if there's time left
Quote:

### port to full deferred shading
### fallback forward renderer
### Reuse deferred view Z-Buffer for lightview and forward view
### Use shared rendertargets whenever possible
### store material properties in 1D texture (1x256) instead of 3d. Fetch with material ID. Max of 256 materials. 4 Properties per material possible.
- OR store material properties in 2D texture. Fetch with material ID. -> More material properties in one texture. (Use y uv for property adressing. texture-height * 4 values per material possible)
* compute brdf LUT on the fly using actual shaders & RTs
* get on-the-fly volumetric texture creation to work ... this might get hard without a dll
### dof (port from old shade-c)
### pseudo bokeh dof
### fix dof edgebleeding
- fix dof foreground objects (should have blurred edges)
### ssao (port from old shade-c)
### ssdo
* MLAA (port from old shade-c) FXAA SMAA DLAA etc
- auto stippling or some other way to get smooth alpha in deferred view
### refractions (port from old shade-c)
- no hard model edges for shield and shieldburn -> multiply alpha with velvety
* water
- refract example fx
### (soft) particles/fog (port from old shade-c)
###- Acknex particle: render in forward view. use ZBuffer from gBuffer generation!
+++ projectors
+++ local lights and shadows (port from old shade-c)
### Get volumetric textures working
- light probes (save lightprobes in volumetric texture, then fetch/lerp correct probe(s) in deferred_finalize.fx based on ID)
- distance based lights projection map: use a volmap with 2 textures, one sharp, one blurred. Fetch projection based on attenuation
+++ directional lights and shadows (port from old shade-c)
- cloud projection map for directional lights
- "volumetric" decal. Project Texture using a cube and worldposition OR cube+matrix (like spotlight)
- transparent decals: render in forward view. multiply with deferredLighting buffer. use ZBuffer from gBuffer generation
- wind vertex animation for gBuffer materials
- POM/PM for gBuffer materials
- detail diffuse/normalmap for gBuffer materials (simple and tri-planar)
* terrain (using volumetric maps for up to 255 textures), blend using double noise. Using grayscale 8bit(=255 values) blendmap or slope/heightbased
* teamcolor for gBuffer materials
- CSSM shadows (Boris Vorontsov)...this might get hard
### #define for mtlSkin instead of entSkin for gBuffer materials
- screenspace lensflare with maskmap/precomputed lensflaremap http://www.gamedev.net/topic/620699-bf3-lens-flares/
- screenspace lensflare -> http://www.john-chapman.net/content.php?id=18
- dynamic shadowmap accumulation -> http://www.john-chapman.net/content.php?id=14
- volumetric spotlights -> http://www.john-chapman.net/content.php?id=16
### better ssao (?) -> http://www.john-chapman.net/content.php?id=8
- faster MLAA (?) -> http://www.gamedev.net/topic/620689-smlaa-a-less-blurry-mlaa/
- film grain post process
- godrays (port from old shade-c)
- screen space sss
-> http://www.iryoku.com/sssss/
-> http://www.iryoku.com/translucency/
- screen space reflections (mirrored UVs based on screen-space nomals and view dir ... ?)
- gamma correction


+++ xml based materials (define material id, brdf lightfunction, diffuse roughness, diffuse wrap)
- xml based settings with load/save function
- in-game shader adjustment with save/load function for effects and objects


- Get A8 somehow
- add support for GPU bones
- create custom PSSM shader, but use A8's PSSM functions



laugh

Last edited by BoH_Havoc; 05/03/12 01:48.

Shade-C EVO Lite-C Shader Framework
Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: BoH_Havoc] #402670
06/08/12 22:28
06/08/12 22:28
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BoH_Havoc Offline OP
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BoH_Havoc  Offline OP
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Just got an A8 Pro from rojart (thanks again friend! Also for germanunkols additional version!) and could give Shade-C + A8 a try. To my surprise it actually works!
The only thing that's not behaving correctly is the skycube (looks like it's not being recognized as a cubemap).

Also CSiS got the newest version of Shade-C integrated. Now i have to wait and see if everything works as expected (i'm already preparing for germanunkol's rant for all the new bugs i "implemented" grin ).
As soon as we have thoroughly tested the new version, i'll post the new shade-c here for you guys to try.


In the meantime, here's screen space lensflares:










Shade-C EVO Lite-C Shader Framework
Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: BoH_Havoc] #402671
06/08/12 22:50
06/08/12 22:50
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,218
Germany
Rackscha Offline
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Posts: 1,218
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Originally Posted By: BoH_Havoc

As soon as we have thoroughly tested the new version, i'll post the new shade-c here for you guys to try.


OH, cant wait o.o


MY Website with news of my projects:
(for example my current
Muliplayer Bomberman,
GenesisPrecompiler for LiteC
and TileMaster, an easy to use Tile editor)
Sparetime-Development

Re: Shade-C v0.91 BETA S1 RELEASED [Re: Rackscha] #403253
06/17/12 07:29
06/17/12 07:29
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,210
Bavaria, Germany
Kartoffel Offline
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Kartoffel  Offline
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@BoH_Havoc
These features sound amazing!

can't wait for it frown

Last edited by Kartoffel; 06/17/12 07:30.

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