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Perpetuum mobile #352169
01/01/11 19:10
01/01/11 19:10
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 900
Lgh
rojart Offline OP
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rojart  Offline OP
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Lgh
Just out of curiosity, I would like to hear your opinion about Perpetuum mobile.
Do you think, it is possible to build a machine that will remain in operation forever and provide additional work as well?

Perpetual Motion Machine
single choice
Votes accepted starting: 01/01/11 19:07
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

Regards, Robert

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Re: Perpetuum mobile [Re: rojart] #352180
01/01/11 20:20
01/01/11 20:20
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134
Netherlands
Joozey Offline
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No, perpetual machines are not possible by laws of physics. Our universe is shaped in such a way that it can exist out of nothing. It loses nor makes more energy than there already is.

But if one was able to disintegrate a sugarcube into pure energy, it could lit the world for 7 seconds:

4,17 gram of sugar
e = 0.00417(kg) * (3*10^8)^2 = 9*10^13 Joules (e=mc^2)

World energy consumption is (added up) 13 terawatt and a bit, is 13*10^12 watt.
Striping away all the zeroes (1 joule = 1watt/1sec), we are left with 90/13 = ~7 seconds.

So if you were able to convert matter into pure energy, no energy loss (or maybe a tiny fraction for continuing the conversion progress), you practically invented a perpetual machine. Yet nothing stays forever as it is. In the long run, even this matter-to-energy device will subject to decay. Theoretically and practically this is the closest approach to a perpetual device, I think.


Last edited by Joozey; 01/01/11 20:22.

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Re: Perpetuum mobile [Re: Joozey] #352184
01/01/11 20:59
01/01/11 20:59
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 379
Flevoland, 5 meters under wate...
Roel Offline
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Roel  Offline
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Flevoland, 5 meters under wate...
As joozey alsready said, it can't be build
however, as I see it, there is one: the universe itself.


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Re: Perpetuum mobile [Re: Roel] #352225
01/02/11 09:09
01/02/11 09:09
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
A
AlbertoT Offline
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AlbertoT  Offline
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You should consider a key point :

Does the system deliver energy to the ambient ?

If so, perpetual motion is not possible

Otherwise it is possible
The motion of the electrons about the nucleus is an example of perpetuel motion

Re: Perpetuum mobile [Re: AlbertoT] #352281
01/02/11 18:08
01/02/11 18:08
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,615
Cambridge
Joey Offline
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Originally Posted By: AlbertoT
The motion of the electrons about the nucleus is an example of perpetuel motion

no it isn't.

Re: Perpetuum mobile [Re: Joey] #352323
01/02/11 21:32
01/02/11 21:32
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
A
AlbertoT Offline
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AlbertoT  Offline
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why not ?

Re: Perpetuum mobile [Re: AlbertoT] #352328
01/02/11 22:10
01/02/11 22:10
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 752
bredebrothers Offline
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A Perpetuum mobile is not possible, because it is against common thermodynamic laws. There are two or more types of different perpetuum mobiles - but all fail at the first or second law of thermodynamics. For the newbie some constructions and effects seem to be an innovation - but looking at it, analizing it, you always come to the conclusion, that you put more engergy in, than you get out (due to loss in friction, heat etc. [but remember, energy can't be lost, it can only be transformed]).

You always have to stripe down the very complex constructions to a simple system - then you will always find out that something is wrong wink

Just a small sample: Every force in this world needs a counterpart, otherwise simple constructions as a chair / table etc. would never be able to exist ( they would roll over, begin to fly or collapse). So, transferring this to energy, you can't say that someone is producing energy, just transforming it. Otherwise we all would end up in chaos wink

Re: Perpetuum mobile [Re: bredebrothers] #352337
01/02/11 23:04
01/02/11 23:04
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,154
Damocles_ Offline
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Damocles_  Offline
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The laws of Thermodynamics are statistical descriptions,
not exclusive laws.

Thus a perpetuum mobile is not impossible, but
statistically unlikely.

Quantum mechanic effects can create energy or order
out of a lower state. Its just statistically very unlikely.

Re: Perpetuum mobile [Re: bredebrothers] #352343
01/03/11 00:13
01/03/11 00:13
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
A
AlbertoT Offline
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AlbertoT  Offline
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Originally Posted By: bredebrothers
A Perpetuum mobile is not possible, because it is against common thermodynamic laws.


So, mr Niels Bohr ignored the thermodynamic laws when he proposed his model of atom made od electrons orbiting about the nucleus without losing energy
A little bit unlikely , dont you agree ?

Re: Perpetuum mobile [Re: AlbertoT] #352344
01/03/11 00:28
01/03/11 00:28
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 7,441
ventilator Offline
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ventilator  Offline
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what about this?

the only thing needed would be perfect valves that don't lose water. tongue

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