Still saying that everything related to UFOs just happens in people's minds is nonesense though (which is non-disputable as the phenomenom even officially is confirmed). This might apply to lots of sightings of some lights in the sky but the phenomenom of UFOs - being them alien or not - is definitely real. You can stay reluctant on this but things simply don't (always) happen just in people's minds...

Enjoy your meal
Toast

You're the one who's stubborn, insisting there must be an alien relationship, where in reality there's really no evidence for that.

In fact, what do you mean with 'officially confirmed'? Governments keeping records of sightings? You must be kidding me. As long as there isn't a true alien caught or space ship found, it's stupid to insist on the alien explanations. It's crazy.

Well I tried my best to give you examples of evidences and strong indications. As you even seem to refuse the possibility of alien interacton right from the beginning I guess the discussion is futile. Actually you wash away any indications and everything pretty solid gets explained by "people seeing things" or flimsy things about hypnosis and unlikely events without a basis...


As I said and everyone actually should know - the UFO phenomenom itself is undisputable and real. I don't know what else to really say about this part as you must have lived under a rock in order to not acknowledge that. If you didn't know I guess you should inform yourself a bit (as I currently don't feel like pulling up all the reports & videos about that part of the story)...

Enjoy your meal
Toast

I dont think Phemox is actually a non-believer.
From the majority of this thread Ive read, it seems to me that he is one of those people, like myself,
who often get mis-interpreted when they object to people saying things like
"... it IS ..." instead of "... I think it is ..." or "... it LOOKS like ...".
When we hear people taking an "expert" tone without CREDIBLE evidence to back it up, anything
we say then somehow ends up tainted with a very negative tone, because we disagree with
the ATTITUDE rather than the subject matter.
(And, Sorry but I dont accept U-Tube as a "credible" source of FACTS either)

For example, in Toasts last post, he is saying that "the UFO phenomenon itself is undisputable and real".
Im not going to dispute that.

BUT I will dispute that as being PROOF of aliens. After all UFO stands for UNIDENTIFIED Flying Object.
UFO's are there ... no argument, plenty of (usually blurry?) photos.
UFO's are "Objects" ... no argument.
UFO's are "Flying" ... no argument. (even though some are landed)
UFO's are "Unidentified" ... no argument. We have no proof or evidence to what MANY of them are.
(I suspect this is because once we have strong evidence or proof of what it is, ITS NO LONGER UNIDENTIFIED!
and so that particular sighting/evidence is no longer interesting or useful to Alien-hunters / UFO-nuts, etc.)
BUT we have no OFFICIAL publicly-available evidence ANY of them are "Alien" in origin.

So how can you use the "UFO phenomenon" as proof of alien visitation, be it extra-terrestrial or extra-dimensional?
Quite simply.... you cant.
But you CAN say it "..lends much credence to the theory.." of alien visitation.



PS:: Please Note, any insult or offence caused by my comments or phrase-ology is entirely unintentional.
I hereby humbly apologise if any insult or offence was caused.

PPS:: Also note, personally ...
1> I do believe in Extra-terrestrial Intelligence. Its a mathematical certainty IMHO.
2> I highly-doubt (but NOT dis-believe) in Alien "visitation" due to the distances involved.
3> I do believe in the possibility Extra-Dimensional Intellligence.
4> I believe mankinds science to be too un-developed yet to even make an "educated" guesses
about the existance or behaviour of Extra-Dimensional intellligences.

I came up with my comments about the UFO phenomenom itself and in general as PHeMoX drifted into having a "smart-ass explanation" (not meant as insult - don't know how to express it otherwise right now) for everything summed up into things just happening in the people's minds because they are seeing things (one suggested reason being hypnosis)...

At that point I got the impression that we didn't even have a common basis to discuss on which is why I brought the phenomenom itself up. While I'm not 100% sure if he really understood what I meant with that from his recent responses he seems to defy the existence of the phenomenom itself (as I wrote: despite being alien or not). It of course now is futile to discuss the "interpretation" of something the one side doesn't acknowledge after all...


Just a short question because I'm curious: Do you think the Disclosure Project is a hoax because it is on Youtube?


Well in my opinion at least some stories about UFOs etc. actually are about aliens due to the records of very old civilizations which don't describe something one might interpret the one way or the other but plain and simply describe some beings being extraterrestrial which had great influence in either their culture or the story of Creation...

There also are quite some interesting "recent" sources for such a view and I like to link people to the Disclosure Project as it imo is the movement with the highest probability of success in actually uncovering certain things (for everyone) as it's not about some mad men from the street but people you trust your defenses (up to generals there are quite some personalities) or your life with (air-traffic-control) and many more things like that. It's simply too much to ignore in my opinion and the people have too much integrity to ridicule all of them...

Enjoy your meal
Toast

Toast, just because I used a piece of your post, it doesnt mean that I think you are a member
of the "its proof" brigade. It was just a handy example...

As for the post-sparring that you and Phemox are having ... well ... it left me confused.
I dont think you are both arguing about the same point anymore, it just got lost somewhere.

As for your question ... anyone can post stuff on U-Tube, but not everyone can be trusted
to tell the truth, so I cant accept EVERYTHING on UTube to be true.
Nothing on UTube should be trusted to be a fact, but that doesnt mean ignore it all.
As the old expression goes "Read, think, THEN talk...". Treat UTube the same way.
Look at its content, then its presentation, then THINK before you start believing it...
Does it look faked, does the author have something to gain, etcetera...

As for "the Disclosure Project" ... I have no idea. Never heard if it till tonite.
I may take a look for it later, but Im not making any promises.


And in my opinion those records dont count for much, thats just some modern peoples interpretation of them.

You could just as easily look to ancient Egyption records and say that according to them, the pharohs
were actual gods that made the sun rise every day and the river flood for crops.
And the record also say that you know they were gods cause the looked so different to everyone else.

Thats the same 'sort' of proof as the Aztec "spaceship" carvings, for example.
But does anyone today believe the Pharohs actually WERE gods? That the sun and Nile was thier job?
Hell no. We now know that they were just badly inbred, thats why they looked different.

But I'll say again, these are just MY opinions.
It doesnt mean Im right, and it doesnt mean your wrong either.

Ah - ok I see. I thought you also had read the posts in the other topic about that "alien" looking animal thing or whatever it is...


Actually my point went beyond that. There actually is more than looking at some pictures and interpreting things to look like a spaceship or something like that. Especially the Sumerian records are pretty clear. They tell of an alien race coming to earth which actually created mankind. Also in Africa one can find lots of different things - one tribe even claims not to have had contact with "aliens" but that their roots actually are extraterretrial. All those things are nothing "new" but are stories thousands of years old...

I described lots of those things in more detail in the other topic so you may read that up if you're curious...

EDIT:
Oh - actually all the info is in this thread. I thought I was answering in the crop circle topic...

Enjoy your meal
Toast

You're wrong, that's not what would happen! Magnetic shifts happen basically all the time and do not cause the magnetic north to disappear at all. In fact, when looking at these things in perspective (meaning over a long period time, millions of years) it really didn't matter for life on earth at all.



The magnetic field won't disappear.

Poleshifting however is something entirely different and ís of course what the 2012 doomsdayers talk about.



I believe we are talking about the same thing, but he's changing his arguments quite radically at times.

By the way, about planet X. It hasn't been confirmed to be an actual planet at all, it's simply too big for a simple asteroid to be classified as something else and it seems to fit the picture of a tenth planet when it comes to it's trajectory so far. We've only known this 'planet' for 4 years though. (Also it's moving away from us and won't be able to hit us in 2012 at all.)

Here:

Can you give me examples for that? Because I'd disagree on this...

Enjoy your meal
Toast

The magnetic shift and poleshift for example. You had them mixed up in the beginning, but now say you meant the other thing, which is entirely different.

I think there's some more, but lets not make this a who said what issue, as that would be really futile.

I missed EvilSOB's post though, but he made a great point, so lets continue there.



YES. That's exactly true. Of course, a lot of what I am talking about can easily be classified as 'having an opinion' about whatever the other guy says. But most of the time it's quite futile to refute things that were already refuted over and over again. I'm definitely not a 'disbeliever'. There are several reasons why I am usually very interested in these threads, one of them being that I enjoy the thought of not being alone in this universe. Oops, what I mean to say, (nope I'm not alien), is that it would be incredibly exciting from a scientific perspective if we wouldn't be the only advanced life form.

I tend to agree with the mathematics in that in theory it's more or less likely enough for life elsewhere to exist to assume there's sóme form of life on other planets than Earth.



Not a source of evidence, but definitely a source of interesting stories, whether true or false. It's like TV. Probably a whole lot of nonsense, but always entertaining.



Yes, I agree here as well. I don't dispute that people really believe having seen something, or in fact have seen something.



Yes to all of this and especially that last sentence. There really is no true EVIDENCE. Which is why I don't quite accept anyone claiming 'there are aliens' just yet.



I agree. I also think UFO sightings could very well be mankind's own aircraft, but from future times. It's assuming time travel can exist in the future, but from a theoretical point of view, it would make sense to already see 'visitors' from another time. Again though, this is as much 'wild speculation' as the alien theories are. It's also assuming some of those UFO sightings are 'real'. We all know many of them are hoaxes and fakes.




I agree on all points. When it comes to extra-dimensional intelligence, I don't think in terms of 'ghosts' and all that, but I do think we, as beings existing in a 3 dimensional space, possibly won't be able to really grasp or understand how multi-dimensional (>3D) beings would be like, let alone how their existence would work.

It's like explaining to a black dot on a white paper how a 3 dimensional object makes up a pencil that can make black dots. Would a dot be able to easily understand how such things would work, dimensions included? For the black dot on paper, making a pencil strike would look like pure magic from their perspective.

Again, in the end I am just skeptical, but I'm not a disbeliever by default. The very same, believe it or not, is true when it comes to the God questions.