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#272605 - 06/18/09 23:58 Re: Torque 3D [Re: darkinferno]
ratchet Offline
Expert

Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 2488
so as i can see, torque seems to be directed more towards artists while gs seems to be directed more towards programmers

Sure , and each beta confirms it for 3DGS :
each beta = new fonctions for programmers smile
I would prefer :
each beat = new tools or properties panels for 3D Artists !

@Freank_G:
Well the last demo of Torque 3D is great smile
REminds Unity interface , caus the two engines have similar workflow : all lights properties on panel,easy to change and direct views of result.
Yep Torque 3D seems to really work, i like a lot the light rays also in their video.

I like alos their implementation of Nvidia Physics Cloth :
Cloth demo

Why A7 don't move directly to Nvidia Physx !
A simple engine as Dark BAsic Professionnal , even if it is very buggy, have implement Nvidia Physics from some time already !

Their racing Kit like some other Torque Kits will be great.
Imagine you can mod it and make your own racing game,without much coding ! why not a Daytona USA clone smile !
Torque Racing Kit

Found also material editor in the World Editor :
material editor
It's a lot like in Unity, nut in Unity you can affect material to an object just by dargging the material on it's properties panel !


Edited by ratchet (06/19/09 00:42)

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#272607 - 06/19/09 00:41 Re: Torque 3D [Re: Pappenheimer]
mpdeveloper_B Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 2185
Loc: right outside your window plan...
Originally Posted By: Pappenheimer
Originally Posted By: lostclimate
what, that video at the end? thats nothing.

Honestly, I don't get you. I still only use 3DGS, and I never considered buying Torque, but this huge landscape and the flawless real time shadowing in it is beyond anything that I expect to see in 3DGS in any reasonable time frame.

Although, I would like to know how fast it would run on my pc.


The guy posted in his comments that he was simulating a single core cpu, he turned off his additional cpus and the setup was:

Single core 2.6 Ghz
Single GeForce 9600GT

When it was simulated in the engine it showed up as a PIII....that means it's theoretically possible to run torque on a P3.

Read This:

http://www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/17567/1#comment-128273

Now remember that the polys he mentions is just the tall buildings, that's not including the desert scene that is in the same map, or the high poly terrain. There's way more than just 1mil polys.

Originally Posted By: JulzMighty
even though the guy who made the 167k or whatever terrain example said he'd like to see it kill other engines, it actually wouldn't. It's really not a big deal. And on his dual-graphics card PC (which is not absolute latest-gen but more than enough for any modern game [I'd say even Crysis on full settings, given I have ONE of those graphics cards and handle full-Crysis beautifully]) he raved about getting up to 40 fps AFTER adding LoD. 60 fps as a general rule is ideal for an actual release game (though in the PC world you obviously can't account for everyone's different specs).


did you actually read the blog? check my link above.

Originally Posted By: JulzMighty
This sub-forum is not about talking about A7, it is about talking about "Competitor products & game development tools".


That does involve 'comparing' 3DGS with other engines.

@Frank: I'm gonna finish reading that blog in a minute. laugh

@everyone: Ok, you want to prove your point that 3DGS can do this stuff, here's what you do:

1. Make a GAME that has it, big terrains, soft shadows, terrain shadow mapping (easily done with a shader), normal mapping, parallax, a decent flood of particles (yes torque can handle quite a few of them, if you want to go against T3D, then make them soft particles, yes they added that to T3D), a number of trees and grass covering your terrain, and heavy rain in that map, SSAO, Refractions, Good Physics running where you don't get stuck in the wall, etc.

2. It has to be a playable game, not just a small room with tests.

3. Post the game in the showcase, or projects or whatever. The moment I see this game (and play it) that can run all those effects in the same map (which i can run in the demo version of TGEA) and have a playable game with AI, then I'll admit that 3DGS can do all you crack it up to do.


Edited by mpdeveloper_B (06/19/09 00:42)
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#272608 - 06/19/09 00:46 Re: Torque 3D [Re: mpdeveloper_B]
ratchet Offline
Expert

Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 2488

The moment I see this game (and play it) that can run all those effects in the same map (which i can run in the demo version of TGEA) and have a playable game with AI, then I'll admit that 3DGS can do all you crack it up to do.


Lot of realist people already know A7 can't compare.

I would say instead try to do it in A7 : i just can't imagine the lot of work it will take to someone to do it :
Find the code for each effect ,try to integrate it etc ...
In Torque 3D, you just use standard assets and libraries: no coding , all things are ready to use !

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#272613 - 06/19/09 01:13 Re: Torque 3D [Re: ratchet]
JibbSmart Offline
Expert

Registered: 03/27/06
Posts: 3489
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Quote:
did you actually read the blog? check my link above.

Of course I read it:
Quote:
Omegadog, Have you run these same tests on a regular P4 2.2/2.6 with 1 9600GT or something near these specs ?
This comes before the post you mentioned. It was only then that he began simulating a lazier PC. He had already raved about the 40fps. And even afterwards he probably went back to his normal set-up.

Also, I don't care how few cores he simulated. He has hardly any entities on screen, only one animated character, it's really the graphics that're the main point to impress here.

At the moment I have exams, but next week I will try and see how much I can squeeze out of A7. That's not relevant, though.

For one thing: it says a lot about that guy's expectations when he began raving about how it should kill other engines when he only had one fortress and the terrain.

It is good performance, really, but it's not amazing.
Quote:
That does involve 'comparing' 3DGS with other engines.
Yes, but obviously the argument had descended into "I've seen 3DGS do this -- Well I haven't -- Well I have" without talking about Torque 3D.

We're enjoying having a look and talk about features like soft-particles and all that, and then you come back and try to turn the thread back onto what you think A7 can't do.

Jibb

EDIT: Btw, my attitude doesn't come across very nicely in this post, I know. In real life I enjoy a good argument, and I'll do it light-heartedly and with a smile, but that doesn't translate to text very well (if I put in smileys but don't change the wording it'll probably look patronising). Sorry for that, that's something I'm working on when I'm online.


Edited by JulzMighty (06/19/09 04:06)
Edit Reason: Probably seem a tad agro
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#272640 - 06/19/09 05:21 Re: Torque 3D [Re: ratchet]
mpdeveloper_B Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/22/06
Posts: 2185
Loc: right outside your window plan...
Originally Posted By: ratchet
In Torque 3D, you just use standard assets and libraries: no coding , all things are ready to use !


That's true, but I don't want an engine that does it all for me. I'm a programmer, I want to make my own content. That's why I want Torque for the source code.

I think if 3DGS released source code it would instantly change the way the engine is. Having source means you have no limits at all. You can make the engine your own.

Originally Posted By: JulzMighty
For one thing: it says a lot about that guy's expectations when he began raving about how it should kill other engines when he only had one fortress and the terrain.


That's why I posted the one that I did in my last post, he didn't just run one fortress, he ran multiple ones. He had over 1,002,000 polys in fortresses alone (which is only around 8-9 fortresses, but it's more polys than most engines can handle). You also forget that he has the desert scene with multiple buildings and trees, which is in the same map.

Originally Posted By: JulzMighty
We're enjoying having a look and talk about features like soft-particles and all that, and then you come back and try to turn the thread back onto what you think A7 can't do.


True, for my first post, but it is relevant to T3D, which is why I posted.

Originally Posted By: JulzMighty
EDIT: Btw, my attitude doesn't come across very nicely in this post, I know. In real life I enjoy a good argument, and I'll do it light-heartedly and with a smile, but that doesn't translate to text very well (if I put in smileys but don't change the wording it'll probably look patronising). Sorry for that, that's something I'm working on when I'm online.


Same here, I enjoy debating issues like this, and I like debating with people who have a good standpoint. I'm not at all frustrated with debating with you. laugh

The only thing that bugs me is people who haven't made games post "well the engine's totally capable of this and this" when in reality they haven't tried to do any kind of frame rate tests that involve actual gameplay. There's multiple reasons why I'm rooting for Torque:

1. Tribes 2
2. Jeff Tunnel (not really but I thought i'd throw it in there) laugh
3. Garage Games, unlike Conitec, are game developers. (no offense intended) They know that if they want to pull off more they will have to dabble in newer technology. The fact that they MAKE games with their engine is what gives them an edge, that's why AAA engines are so well made (except D3 laugh ) because they were made to make a game.
4. Source Code, when all else fails in the script, use c++
5. The developers listen, even to people who haven't bought the game engine (not that conitec doesn't, it's just that some things that were complained about even in A5 still aren't fixed)

Like I mentioned I just want to be able to code outside of the box. I get that A7 can do that, which is nice and all, but with A7 you still have to use the syntax which is just piling up more on the engines coding, and if the code is a bit slow then it just makes it a bit slower. The reason I like Torque is because you can change the basis, you don't have to add on with a plugin, you can change the engine itself.

Don't get me wrong I like having things like a grass/tree generator that's already in engine, and the fact that it's in the actual editor makes it all the better since the editor is 100% live. That kind of stuff saves time, and it's great, but over all the "click together your game" stuff...I want source. I started as a modder and went insane that I couldn't edit game source for the games I was modding, which is why I got into Game Development.

But I digress, my post is too long. At least it's mostly about Torque. laugh
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#272641 - 06/19/09 06:01 Re: Torque 3D [Re: mpdeveloper_B]
lostclimate Offline
Expert

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 4767
Loc: Bay City, MI
so your telling me you don't think a level in a7 can have more than 1mill polys? laugh thats hilarious.

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#272644 - 06/19/09 06:57 Re: Torque 3D [Re: lostclimate]
Why_Do_I_Die Offline
Warned

Registered: 05/07/05
Posts: 819
Loc: U.S.
"so your telling me you don't think a level in a7 can have more than 1mill polys? laugh thats hilarious."

Hey lostclimate , when are you setting up the scripts man ? You said 5 minutes to do , it's been days and you haven't put a thing together. Were you lying ?

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#272645 - 06/19/09 07:10 Re: Torque 3D [Re: Why_Do_I_Die]
lostclimate Offline
Expert

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 4767
Loc: Bay City, MI
http://www.opserver.de/wiki/index.php/Shaders#Fullscreen_Postprocessing

enjoy.

I am not going to spend time setting something up and setting up a test level to prove something that is completely obvious. follow that link and follow directions, its not difficult in the least.

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#272649 - 06/19/09 08:18 Re: Torque 3D [Re: lostclimate]
Machinery_Frank Offline
Senior Expert

Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 7121
Loc: Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Originally Posted By: lostclimate
so your telling me you don't think a level in a7 can have more than 1mill polys? laugh thats hilarious.


It already was mentioned a few times in this thread: This scene shows much more than 1 mio polies. The fortress models alone sum up to this. There is still a huge terrain and the desert village, palm trees, sky, an animated character, per-poly collision detection, a weapon, some scripts running, multi-resolution real-time shadow mapping (highres shadow map near the camera and lowres shadow map in a distant).

Your link to a shader collection is no comparison to this.

In the end you are assuming and I would say: seeing is believing.
I saw impressive scenes in T3D, in Unity and C4. They made their points, they proved what they can deliver.

But back to T3D:
Some of you wrote about having the source code. This can be nice and helpful an in the case of Torque it is often needed. But I know from several skilled programmers that the Torque code is not always very well structured. They mention the C4 engine code as the best engine source code, easy to read, well structured and well engineered.
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#272650 - 06/19/09 08:32 Re: Torque 3D [Re: Machinery_Frank]
lostclimate Offline
Expert

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 4767
Loc: Bay City, MI
Quote:
Your link to a shader collection is no comparison to this.


I wasn't comparing those to the video (obviously no equality there) why_do_i_die seems to think that just because I said basic post processing effects take all of 5 min to set up, that I'd build a level and implement it just for the sake of proving it to him, instead i just linked those. As far as the level, people seem to act like all of it is visible in the same frame when it is very much not.

a7 Ill admit is not as "plug and play" as torque, but again, its not a good comparison and there is good reason to use either of them. as darkinferno julz and frank seem to be trying to do, lets get back to talking about torque, why_do_i_die, or did you make this thread specifically to bash a7?

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