Hilbert's Hotel

Diskussionsforum zur Unendlichkeit: Theismus, Atheismus, Primzahlen, Unsterblichkeit, das Universum...
Discussing Infinity: theism and atheism, prime numbers, immortality, cosmology, philosophy...

Gamestudio Links
Zorro Links
Newest Posts
Blobsculptor tools and objects download here
by NeoDumont. 03/28/24 03:01
Issue with Multi-Core WFO Training
by aliswee. 03/24/24 20:20
Why Zorro supports up to 72 cores?
by Edgar_Herrera. 03/23/24 21:41
Zorro Trader GPT
by TipmyPip. 03/06/24 09:27
VSCode instead of SED
by 3run. 03/01/24 19:06
AUM Magazine
Latest Screens
The Bible Game
A psychological thriller game
SHADOW (2014)
DEAD TASTE
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (opm), 778 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
sakolin, rajesh7827, juergen_wue, NITRO_FOREVER, jack0roses
19043 Registered Users
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rating: 2
Page 59 of 67 1 2 57 58 59 60 61 66 67
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Lukas] #245678
01/11/09 09:30
01/11/09 09:30
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 868
Chicago, IL
Dooley Offline
User
Dooley  Offline
User

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 868
Chicago, IL
I find it kind of funny that you're willing to write off the Quran as a fairy tale, when it is a book which started one of the biggest and most advanced civilizations in human history. I'm not saying that the number of people who believe in it make it true, it's just strange that you're willing to write it off so quickly, without apparently, even having read it.

The thing about the Quran is that it explains itself. When you assume that by 'day' it means 24 hours, you are wrong. Here are some other examples of the use of the word 'yawm' in the Quran (translated as 'day')

"Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! But Allah will not fail in His promise. Verily a day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning." (Quran 22:47)

"The angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day the measure whereof
is (as) fifty thousand years:" (Quran 70:4)

The other thing was when you said that the Quran contradicts itself, when it mentioned creating living things from water, and the other verse where it mentioned mud. Mud has water in it, so there's no contradiction. Also, it did not say 'only water', it just said 'from water', which does not preclude other ingredients.

I really think you guys are assuming that the Islamic view of science is as bad as the old Christian view. This is very different from what history actually shows us. At the height of Islamic civilization, the sciences flourished, medicine made great leaps and bounds forward. All this because the Quran encourages it's readers to look at nature, and use their minds.

"Travel in the land and see how He originated creation, then Allah
bringeth forth the later growth. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things."(Quran 29:20)

"Lo! In the creation of the heavens and the earth and (in) the difference of night and day are tokens (of His sovereignty) for men of understanding" (Quran 3:190)

The Prophet even encouraged the study of medicine

"The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Allah has sent down both the disease and the cure, and He has appointed a cure for every disease, so treat yourselves medically, but use nothing unlawful." (Hadith of the Prophet)

This is not just a theoretical argument, the Muslims actually did these things and pushed the sciences forward, while Europe was in it's 'dark ages'.

Medicine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna

Social Sciences
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun

Mathematics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi

And yes... Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Jahiz

They also set about translating ancient texts in Greek, and Sanskrit, which furthered the sciences even more.

The point is, all this was as a direct result of the teachings of the Quran, which encourages studying nature, and history, and astronomy etc...

Furthermore, the Quran gives information which has only been verified by science withing recent years. I will provide one example of such information, and give a link if you want to study it more:

http://www.quranandscience.com/mountain.html

It mentions how the mountains are described as 'pegs' in the Quran. Only recently with modern technology, have scientists been able to determine that mountains have roots which go deep into the earth. The Quran also explains that them mountains help to stabilize the earth. The roots or pegs, prevent the tectonic plates from moving too quickly. Again, only very recent knowledge has allowed scientists to understand these issues.

There are more examples like this in the Quran. It is further evidence that the Quran is not a book of fairy tales, as you say, but a book of truth.

I'm not saying that everything posted about the Quran on every website is true. I am doing my own research into this area. But so far I haven't found anything which would compromise it's claim as a divinely inspired book.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dooley] #245683
01/11/09 10:23
01/11/09 10:23
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 658
germany
Tiles Offline
User
Tiles  Offline
User

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 658
germany
Give me a proof that your pink elephant called god exists. Then let's talk again wink


trueSpace 7.6, A7 commercial
Free gamegraphics, freewaregames http://www.reinerstilesets.de
Die Community rund um Spiele-Toolkits http://www.clickzone.de
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dooley] #245684
01/11/09 10:27
01/11/09 10:27
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 197
sebcrea Offline
Member
sebcrea  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 197
You are again spreading a lot of white noise and the sentence it is the book of truth totally destroy your earlier advertised open mind to the closed it can get. No the Islamic world view is currently even worse than the Christian, suicide bombing is completely justified through religion.


Quote:

I am doing my own research into this area. But so far I haven't found anything which would compromise it's claim as a divinely inspired book.


I think you would reject anything that weakens your believe in your imaginary friend and you already did in saying that for you it is the book of truth and then claiming to be open minded.
Sorry but your are open blinded and if I where you I would stop trying because we wanted you to provide evidence for example. the miracles, god outside of any holy book, so far you only source is the Quran and you and I know why because there is no evidence.

http://www.quranandscience.com ???

Are your serious ? The verse are written in a way that you could apply them to any sort of thing that doesn't mean that they had advanced knowledge and even if they did have some knowledge why are you rejecting the real science now and belief in all those fairy tales.


Just for one moment stop reading fairy tales and look at the science conducted today but you already put yourself in the silly position that your faith determines what is real and what is not. Because you are again selling certainty and I repeat my question which you haven't answered (okay you haven't answered a single one of my questions)

What sources do you have to make such an assumption other than your feelings or holy book ? Look up page 57


You said the Quran is the book of truth what if someone reject that so called truth ? What says the Quran about those things ?

Just a hint it has something to do with death.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: sebcrea] #245691
01/11/09 10:59
01/11/09 10:59
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,305
New York
PrenceOfDarkness Offline
Serious User
PrenceOfDarkness  Offline
Serious User

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,305
New York
To be honest with everyone I don't believe in God, but I don't go around making fun of people for believing in something I don't. I never got that. If you don't believe in god why is it so important to make sure everyone else doesn't believe in god as well? I'm not talking about the idiot who kills himself and a bunch of people by strapping a bomb to himself (even though I'm sure that both jews, muslims and christians all believe in a good compationate god). I'm talking about that poor guy on the forum like this trying to justify why he believe in what he does.

This gave me a good idea for a forum topic... the reason you do or don't believe in god. Look for it smile


"There is no problem that can't be solved with time and determination." -me
prenceofdarkness for instant messages on AIM.

Looking for a model designer
PLEASE, SEND ME A PRIVATE MESSAGE OR EMAIL IF YOU'RE INTERESTED.
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: PrenceOfDarkness] #245695
01/11/09 11:24
01/11/09 11:24
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 197
sebcrea Offline
Member
sebcrea  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 197
Come on play the worlds smallest violin ...

Well I don't care if his feelings are hurt or not religion should be open to debate like any other thing. He has to provide evidence because he claims he knows the truth already and thats whats got him in this position. He is presenting himself as an open minded person which he is clearly not and what I don't get are these non-believers who are so concerned about not to offend the believe of others. Somehow everyone bought into the idea that religion has some kind of privilege position and I really don't get it because even if a billion people believe something silly it doesn't make it true.

Quote:
If you don't believe in god why is it so important to make sure everyone else doesn't believe in god as well?


Well look up my earlier posts about that religion is not imposed? And then this question should be answered...


It is not the person who is silly it is the believe because it is not baked by evidence.


Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: sebcrea] #245708
01/11/09 12:48
01/11/09 12:48
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 658
germany
Tiles Offline
User
Tiles  Offline
User

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 658
germany
Quote:
If you don't believe in god why is it so important to make sure everyone else doesn't believe in god as well?


It's the exact other way around.

I don't burn or bomb people. I don't kill them as witches. I don't lead wars.

Believers do.

I will never ring at somebody's house to lead a discussion about an imaginary white rabbit. And i will not force a whoule country to do so by saying that what i believe but is unprovable should be teached instead knowledge in schools.

Believers do.

Religion is something private. You can believe what you want. But in your own four walls. And without the try to get control over my live with all possible and impossible weapons.

Last edited by Tiles; 01/11/09 12:49.

trueSpace 7.6, A7 commercial
Free gamegraphics, freewaregames http://www.reinerstilesets.de
Die Community rund um Spiele-Toolkits http://www.clickzone.de
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Tiles] #245718
01/11/09 14:50
01/11/09 14:50
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 218
Nashua NH
heinekenbottle Offline
Member
heinekenbottle  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 218
Nashua NH
Quote:
If you don't believe in god why is it so important to make sure everyone else doesn't believe in god as well?


We would not be so anti religious if religious people would not push their religions down our throats in inappropriate places.


I was once Anonymous_Alcoholic.

Code Breakpoint;
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Tiles] #245721
01/11/09 15:09
01/11/09 15:09
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 868
Chicago, IL
Dooley Offline
User
Dooley  Offline
User

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 868
Chicago, IL
Before I continue to my main point, I will address a few things which were said since my last post.

My religion does not tell me or anyone to kill non-believers. In fact the Quran specifically forbids killing anyone on the basis of their beliefs.

"For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if be had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind." (Quran 5:32)

There is a death penalty in Islam for murder, and for treason, and it is allowed to kill in a war, but it also limits this to those who are fighting against you.

Sahih Al-Bukhari 4:258 (‘Alim)
Narrated Ibn Umar
“During some of the battles of Allah's Apostle a woman was found killed, so Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children.”

This is very unfortunate that some Muslims do not follow their own religion's rules.

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors." (Quran 2:190)

The Quran clearly limits war to situations where others have attacked, or committed great injustice. It does not allow Muslims to go starting wars. You will find many people (even some Muslims) quoting the Quran out of context, showing that it supports a very violent agenda. Remember what I said about it explaining itself. It always explains that the other people being fought against are the aggressors, i.e. they attacked. I don't think there's a country existing that has forbidden itself from conducting a defensive war.

My main point is this: I have been listening to you people. Since coming to this forum, I have read 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins, and I am now a few chapters into 'The Origin of Species' by Charles Darwin. You like to picture me as someone who closes his eyes and ears, just in case he might hear something that disproves his faith. It's not true, I started off as an agnostic.

I am telling you that the Quran is the proof you are looking for. How have you responded? By telling me it's fairy tales, without even reading it... very scientific.

I could treat your arguments the same way, it would sound like this:

Atheist: Charles Darwin wrote about evolution, he proved that animals evolved slowly over time.

Me: Charles Darwin wrote children's fairy tales! Your a fool.

Atheist: No, really, read his book, it's really true...

Me: I will not waste my time reading nonsense! Your a fool!

You want evidence, but you're not willing to look at it when I've given it. What would you like the evidence to look like?

You keep telling me to look at today's science... I do read about today's science. I don't have a problem with it. Again you are assuming that it contradicts my beliefs, but it doesn't.

Another thing, I said that the science examples were 'evidence' that the Quran is a book of truth. I did not say 'It is a book of truth, therefore it is true'

The verses of the Quran are not written in a way which can be interpreted any old way. I agree, some of the explanations from "http://www.quranandscience.com" are not that clear, which is why I started with the one about mountains.

The Quran described mountains as 'pegs'. What is unclear about this? This implies that they reach deep into the ground, like a peg is set with most of it's body under the ground. Instead of responding to the example I gave, you responded that the website was not good enough. I even warned you against making this assumption

Originally Posted By: Dooley
I'm not saying that everything posted about the Quran on every website is true.


It seems like no one even read about the Muslim scientist who described a theory similar to evolution 1000 years before Charles Darwin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Jahiz

Now I will step back, and admit something I have gotten wrong (strange for a religious person?) I think Lukas mentioned that they did not teach any theories of how life began in science class, so why should they teach intelligent design.

I was not aware of this point. In my science classes in the USA, they taught us that life evolved from some ancient mixture of amino acids and lightning, and sited the 'Miller-Urey' experiments as 'proof'.

The problem with these experiments is that they used ammonia as a base ingredient. Ammonia is a byproduct of decaying organic matter, so it would not have been present in the earth's atmosphere without life having already been there.

There's nothing wrong with such experiments, but they have not come close to proving that life generated spontaneously out of inorganic chemicals. This is why science is still coming up with different theories, the Miller-Urey experiment didn't prove anything. Yet it was still used to 'prove' to young impressionable kids that life was generated randomly.

In this situation, I would have appreciated them giving other theories, and mentioning 'intelligent design' as one. Your teacher seems more unwilling to site flimsy experiments as 'proof' that there is no need for God, and perhaps that is a better approach.

Last edited by Dooley; 01/11/09 15:17.
Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: heinekenbottle] #245724
01/11/09 15:15
01/11/09 15:15
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 868
Chicago, IL
Dooley Offline
User
Dooley  Offline
User

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 868
Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: heinekenbottle
Quote:
If you don't believe in god why is it so important to make sure everyone else doesn't believe in god as well?


We would not be so anti religious if religious people would not push their religions down our throats in inappropriate places.


I hope you don't mean here...

"Hilbert's Hotel - Discussing Infinity: theism and atheism, prime numbers, immortality, cosmology, philosophy..."

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dooley] #245748
01/11/09 17:33
01/11/09 17:33
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 658
germany
Tiles Offline
User
Tiles  Offline
User

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 658
germany
And we are back at this point:

Give me a proof that your pink elephant called god exists. Then let's talk again smile


trueSpace 7.6, A7 commercial
Free gamegraphics, freewaregames http://www.reinerstilesets.de
Die Community rund um Spiele-Toolkits http://www.clickzone.de
Page 59 of 67 1 2 57 58 59 60 61 66 67

Moderated by  jcl, Lukas, old_bill, Spirit 

Kompaktes W�rterbuch des UnendlichenCompact Dictionary of the Infinite


Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1