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Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dan Silverman] #243474
12/30/08 08:04
12/30/08 08:04
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 93
YOU AINT GONNA NEED THAT!
M
MAGA Offline
Junior Member
MAGA  Offline
Junior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 93
YOU AINT GONNA NEED THAT!
All that staff that you give it's unoffical, you just found it on some ones sait, why I have to belive you? PROVE! If you what ME to prove that Quran is TRUE you have to learn Arabic and just read it!!!

About a water may be it was in Bible (Bible also came from Allah, but there are too many changes), but that guy I told you about, now is muslim, I know it myself, no matter what you say.

If you are not stupid as you seem to be, you will find answers to your questions! But you problem is that you just don't know were to search...

And about my problem if I belive, I have no problems now (may be you don't have also), but afther death your problems will just begin!!!

I have nothing left to say. All I whanted to say is that there is a God!!! You just have to belive!!!

Last edited by MAGA; 12/30/08 08:08.
Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: MAGA] #243477
12/30/08 08:56
12/30/08 08:56
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline
Senior Expert
Dan Silverman  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Quote:
All that staff that you give it's unoffical ...


O ... K ... Where do I find the "official" stuff at? Quoting the Qur'an is not good enough, huh?

Quote:
If you what ME to prove that Quran is TRUE you have to learn Arabic and just read it!!!


I ... see ... So the non-Arabic speaking part of the world is just SCREWED when it comes to learning the "truth". Wow. Some God. Not only does he ask you to place you faith in the words of an ancient "holy book", but you also have to learn another language to even understand it! All non-Arabic versions are "unofficial" and cannot be used to prove or disprove anything.

I wonder if Dooley, the Muslim posting here that does not speak or read Arabic, has any problems with what you are saying. Perhaps he is screwed, too, because he cannot understand the "official" version.

By the way, how do YOU know that you have the "official" version? There are no original copies (only copies of copies) and, despite what you have probably been told, there are differences between copies. So which "official" version is the real one?

Quote:
About a water may be it was in Bible (Bible also came from Allah, but there are too many changes), but that guy I told you about, now is muslim, I know it myself, no matter what you say.


Hello? I did not say it was the same guy. I said there is a similar story. I realize that English is not your first language, but try to understand what someone is saying before you just spout off (especially when you go ahead and call someone stupid).

Quote:
but that guy I told you about, now is muslim, I know it myself, no matter what you say.


I didn't say that the guy you mentioned is not a Muslim. Again, read what I had said originally. But did you bother to try to answer my questions? What is the man's name? What are the verses he used?

Quote:
If you are not stupid as you seem to be, you will find answers to your questions! But you problem is that you just don't know were to search...


O ... K ... I am stupid and I don't know where to search. You are right, I don't speak Arabic, but I know people that do. I used to live in the Middle East and was a friend with a Bedouin. But I suppose learning from Arabs in the Middle East doesn't count. Perhaps because they had to talk to me in English and, therefore, I could never really understand. wink

Quote:
And about my problem if I belive, I have no problems now (may be you don't have also), but afther death your problems will just begin!!!


Not true. If you are wrong, then you have dedicated your life (and your mind) to serving something that is not real at all. You have committed yourself and your way of life to something that does not exist. This is a waste of life and of your potential.

Also, your afterlife could be in trouble as well. What if one of the other religions is correct? Then you are in a world of hurt, my friend.

Quote:
I have nothing left to say. All I whanted to say is that there is a God!!! You just have to belive!!!


So, belief is what makes God real? We all just have to believe? Did you not read anything that I have already said? Faith/belief is only as good as the object in which it is placed. Just because someone believes in a god does not make that god real.

Listen, MAGA, I know what I am typing here may seem harsh to you, but let's face it, you have not answered any of my questions and you have not presented any proofs for anything you have said. You just said things and demanded that people believe. If anyone refutes the Qur'an you jump back to the Arabic.

If you want to prove a point, then try to prove a point. Telling people to just believe and threatening them with a terrible afterlife is not the way to prove a point.


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Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dan Silverman] #243482
12/30/08 10:11
12/30/08 10:11
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 93
YOU AINT GONNA NEED THAT!
M
MAGA Offline
Junior Member
MAGA  Offline
Junior Member
M

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 93
YOU AINT GONNA NEED THAT!
OK then lets face it! Ain't saying anithing about you similari story about water! But there is only one guy who discovered that! YOU NEED PROVES??? YOU ARE REALY STUPID MOTHERFUCKER IF YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THAT GOD IS SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T NEED ANY PROVES!!! Thats all what I whanted to say! HAVE A HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: MAGA] #243483
12/30/08 10:30
12/30/08 10:30
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 658
germany
Tiles Offline
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Tiles  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 658
germany
Something that cannot be proven doesn't exist. Else there would be a proof for it.

None of these fairy tale books is true.

Last edited by Tiles; 12/30/08 10:31.

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Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Tiles] #243485
12/30/08 10:43
12/30/08 10:43
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline
Senior Expert
Dan Silverman  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Quote:
Ain't saying anithing about you similari story about water! But there is only one guy who discovered that!


Ok. Don't answer my questions then. Don't give the name of the man or the verses that talk about what he discovered. No problem. We will just believe you. No need for proof or any such thing. Whatever ...

Quote:
YOU NEED PROVES???


Yes. The fact that you don't says a lot, actually.

Quote:
YOU ARE REALY STUPID MOTHERFUCKER IF YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THAT GOD IS SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T NEED ANY PROVES!!!


Oh, I am not the brightest bulb in the pack, but I am not stupid, either. Insults really don't help to push forward your position.

If a god wants to have him or herself known and worshiped, then that god would have to have some form of proof to separate themselves from all the other gods that are supposedly out there. For the Christian, the proof is in the book called the Bible. For the Jew, it is the Old Testament portion (the T'nach) of the Bible. For the Muslim it is the Qur'an. Other religions have their holy books and holy men ... all of which serve as a form of "proof" to the existence of their god and their faith. Without these holy writings YOU would have NO IDEA about ALLAH or what he expects from you. Therefore, the Qur'an is your proof. If the book can be proven to be true no matter what valid test is brought against it, then the things that are not provable (such as the existence of Allah, the afterlife, etc) can be accepted more easily. However, the Qur'an does not pass the test. It fails. As such, the untestable things fail as well. Therefore, whether there is a god or gods or not, I do not know for certain, but Allah is not one of them ... at least not the Allah of the Qur'an.

Quote:
Thats all what I whanted to say!


That's probably a good idea. Frankly, you really have not said anything of any real value as it pertains to this discussion. You only asserted your faith, but provided no validation for it. You said some things, but when confronted refused to answer. So, yes, it is good that you have reached the end of what you wanted to say (in my opinion).

Quote:
HAVE A HAPPY NEW YEAR!


I wish the same to you as well (seriously).


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Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dan Silverman] #243561
12/30/08 19:11
12/30/08 19:11
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 24
germany --> nrw --> aachen
D
Davidus Offline
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Davidus  Offline
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D

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 24
germany --> nrw --> aachen
To ask for which is true:

Anything and any religion is true... it's not a boolean ;-)

Why?

Imagine you got a sheep which is black on the one side, and white on the other side.

You have two fanatics at each side,
killing each other because the one on the white side
sits there and sees only the white part -
if the other one claims that the whole sheep must be
black, this is what we call blasphemie.

I like the spiritual idea that we are creating our own
stuff - so if 4 example, millions of people believe in
christianity, theiy are creating a realm that cristians
can habit in after death.

It's just an idea ... but i like it.
If it was true, then anyone would know there are black
sheeps AND white sheeps, and so no one of both was
a liar to the other.

Have fun! smile

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Davidus] #243593
12/30/08 21:32
12/30/08 21:32
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline
Senior Expert
Dan Silverman  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Davidus,

Your analogy is not a very good one (in my opinion), though it does seem fairly typical of the crowd that cries out, "Can't we all just get along?"

Let's expand your analogy a little. Instead of two people on either side of the bi-colored sheep, let's add a few people to either side. On the black side of the sheep are three people. One says the sheep is black. Another says the black side is actually pink. The third is blind and cannot see the sheep at all. All the third person can do is rely on what he is told.

The one that states the sheep is black says that the sheep is black because he can see that the sheep is black. He can take wool from the sheep and test it to see if it is black and all tests confirm that it is black. The second man insists that the sheep is pink and comes up with his own arguments no matter how much evidence the first man presents. The blind man will have to evaluate the arguments to see which side, if any, he chooses to fall on.

Then there is the white side of the sheep. There are a few people there. One happens to be curious and crosses over to the other side and sees that the other side is black! Like the first man on the black side of the sheep, he conducts his tests and determines that the sheep is both black and white, depending on which side you are observing. He presents his evidence to the three on the black side. The second man refutes the evidence and continues to insist the sheep is pink (no matter which side it is viewed from). The first man on the black side refuses to believe the additional evidence, pointing to his own tests that "prove" the sheep is black. The blind man listens.

You could create any scenario you wanted to for this sheep. The point is this: with the sheep illustration, the sheep can be tested and observed. If the tests done show that someone's belief concerning the sheep is wrong, then it is wrong. The second man, for example, can say the sheep is pink all he wants. Just because he has "faith" that it is so does not change the reality of it.

When it comes to religion, there are, indeed, some things that can be tested for truth. While no one may be able to prove or disprove the existence of a god or gods, the things said in supposed holy writings can indeed be tested. For example, someone can take the Bible, the Qur'an, the Book of Mormon or any other holy book and test it for its accuracy when it touches on things of science, archaeology, biology and more. If a holy book states that there are four legged birds (as the Bible does) then we can look to see if there are four legged birds. If a holy book says that babies come from a blood clot or originates from a place between the groin and the sternum (possibly the kidneys) as is indicated in the Qur'an, then we can test that as well. If a holy book speaks of an extensive Jewish civilization existing here in the Americas thousands of years ago (as the book of Mormon teaches) then we can look for traces of that ancient civilization. If such things (and many, many others) prove to be false, then does that not bring the holy book itself into question? And if the holy book is then in question, what about the things it says about its God?

Quote:
I like the spiritual idea that we are creating our own
stuff - so if 4 example, millions of people believe in
christianity, theiy are creating a realm that cristians
can habit in after death.


The problem with this is that people are not just creating something about the afterlife here. They are creating a way of life that dictates what they do in the here and now. The result has been war and death for thousands of years. Look at the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Muslim wars to conquer the world, the current Jihads and on and on it goes.

Oh, and just because you "like" something, does not make it real or true. Just because someone envisions a life after death in a heavenly place with 72 virgins does not mean that it is real or that his thinking of it creates it as a reality. So while you may "like" it, it does not mean it is true and that does not mean it is good, either.


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Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dan Silverman] #243727
12/31/08 15:19
12/31/08 15:19
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 868
Chicago, IL
Dooley Offline OP
User
Dooley  Offline OP
User

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 868
Chicago, IL
Hi Dan,
I've missed out a bit due to the birth of my fourth child. She's healthy and things are getting back to normal. I am going to comment on a post of yours from a few days ago, because I don't think any of your questions or concerns have been addressed smile


Originally Posted By: Dan Silverman

Such as Mohammad attacking and killing those within Mecca because they would not convert to his one, true religion?


This was never the Prophet's goal. The wars he fought were justified because as it points out in the next quote, the Muslims were the ones being persecuted. I will get into more detail on this later, when I discuss the verses of Quran.

Quote:
Muhammad gained few followers early on, and was met with hostility from some Meccan tribes; he and his followers were treated harshly. To escape persecution Muhammad and his followers migrated to Medina (then known as Yathrib) in the year 622 CE. This event, the Hijra, marks the beginning of the Islamic calendar. In Medina, Muhammad united the conflicting tribes, and after eight years of fighting with the Meccan tribes, his followers, who by then had grown to ten thousand, conquered Mecca.


This says it all. Instead of allowing Muhammad to preach his religion, the Meccans tried to silence him. They tortured and persecuted anyone who followed him. If they had handled it differently, their fate would have been much different.

Quote:
From their base in Medina, the Muslims took to raiding Meccan caravans. In 624, they won the battle of Badr and took much booty. Now secure in Medina, Muhammad expelled the Banu Qaynuqa, one of the three main Jewish tribes, and ordered the assassination of the poetess Asma bint Marwan and then the poet Abu Afak, who had been critical of his rule. Subsequently, after each major battle, Muhammad destroyed a different one of the Jewish tribes that had welcomed him and his followers to Medina. After Uhud, he expelled the Banu Nadir, and following the Battle of the Trench in 627, the Muslims accused the Jews of Banu Qurayza of conspiring with the Meccans. They beheaded the adult male members of the Banu Qurayza, and sole the women and children as slaves.


Two big issues here. The first issue is that all the facts of the situations are not being mentioned. The Jewish tribes in question all had treaties with the Muslims of Medina, the fact that they broke their treaties and instead of defending Medina against its attackers (the Meccans) they decided to help them attack the Muslims, that is not mentioned here.

Another fact that's not mentioned is that the ruling which was carried out against Banu Qurayza was decided according to Jewish Law.

The second issue is one of evidence. The Quran is considered the primary source of legislation in Islam. Next comes the hadith, and these are scrutinized carefully by scholars, because their authenticity is not always known.

The occasions you mentioned are based on hadith literature. Any ruling derived from them, must be compared to the principals of the Quran. This approach is not held by all Muslims, but there is overwhelming evidence that it was used by the Prophet himself, as well as his companions.

You need to understand that these issues were decided in a time of war. A war which Muslims did not start, to add to that, their allies turned on them halfway through a battle. Think of this happening in a modern context. What is the punishment for desertion? For treason?

Originally Posted By: Dan Silverman

Qur'an certainly seems to follow Mohammad's mindset of violence toward those that are not willing to accept Mohammad's message.


I will show you that the Quran states no such thing, and actually sets a very high standard for religious tolerance.

Quote:
9:111 Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.


This verse is very general. All it is saying is that the covenant with Allah includes all aspects of one's life, and even requires Muslims to fight and be killed if necessary. It does not define who is to be fought, and under what circumstances. These are defined in other verses.

Quote:
4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,


This verse is one out of a whole chapter. Forget about the historical context, you need to actually read the chapter to understand the situation being described. In most cases, a few verses preceding the verse in question will do.

Let's start with the verse before the one you quoted, who is being discussed?

"What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O Muhammad) canst not find a road." (4:89)

The discussion is about the 'hypocrites', people who were Muslims, but then reverted to disbelief. Now we know the context, so let's re-read the verse in question...

Quote:
4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,


The command is to not be friends with them, unless they return to Islam. If they instead, continue on in disbelief, then the ruling different. Most scholars actually stopped here and said that the ruling for leaving Islam (apostasy) is death. They did not take the context of a war into consideration, and that the act of leaving was actually desertion. Is this my opinion? Let's read the very next verse...

"Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war
on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you
and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them."(4:90)

So if these apostates seek refuge with a nation who the Muslims have a peaceful relationship with, they are not considered enemies, or if they choose to remain neutral, then the command changes. These verses are about people who not only leave Islam (in a time of war), but also choose to join the enemy and fight against the Muslims.

If an American soldier chose to leave the army and fight against the American army, what do you think the ruling would be? Replace 'American' with any country. I think it's the same.

It is true that in the early centuries of Islam, the ruling for apostasy (alone without treason) was death. But there is overwhelming evidence that this was not the practice of the prophet himself.

Quote:
I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. Qur'an 8:12.


Again, you need context. Which unbelievers are being described?

This chapter is describing the events of a battle, and the very next verse defines more clearly why these people are being threatened...

"That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment." (8:13)

There is a reason for the rule. This is always the case, the Quran never commands Muslims to attack anyone just because of their different beliefs.

Here, since the events described conform to the events at the Battle of Uhud, we know that the Quran is describing the Qureysh (Meccans). When He says they 'opposed' Allah and the Messenger, we know that it is referring to the torture, persecution and murder which the Meccans inflicted on the Muslims.

Again, I ask, what are the modern standards for warfare? Should a community be allowed to fight back against it's oppressors? There were no NATO peace-keeping forces back then, coming in to 'stabilize' the situation. What other options did the Muslims have?

Quote:
Sura3 3:64: Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers and has prepared for them a Blazing Fire to dwell in forever. No protector will they find, nor savior. That Day their faces will be turned upside down in the Fire. They will say: Woe to us! We should have obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger! Our Lord! Give them double torment and curse them with a very great Curse!


This is a threat from Allah to anyone who disbelieves in Him. This verse does not make any implications on how Muslims should treat non-Muslims. Again, there are very clear verses which do describe how Muslims should conduct themselves...

The verse you mentioned are all about fighting, ie. how to deal with enemies in a war. But where are the verses about 'who' should be fought, or what conditions are placed upon going to war.

"Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them.
Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers.

Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them.
Whosoever maketh friends of them--(All) such are wrong doers. "(60:8-9)

So the people who did not start attacking Muslims, and did not drive them out of their homes, they are okay. Be nice to them, and just.

I'm not saying Muslims have never started a war, but if they did, they were in clear violation of the Quran.

"Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not, aggressors. " (2:190)

Fighting is against people who have already fought against Muslims. Muslims were never commanded to start wars, or kill anyone.

The default rule for Muslims is that killing anyone is forbidden. It is a huge sin.

"For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if
be had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old
with clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty) , but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth." (5:32)

Even in a war, Muslims are to be careful who they fight against...

"O ye who believe! When ye go forth (to fight) in the way of Allah, be careful to discriminate, and say not unto one who offereth you peace: "Thou are not a
believer;" seeking the chance profits of this life (so that ye may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils. Even thus (as he now is) were ye before; but Allah hath
since then been gracious unto you. Therefore take care to discriminate. Allah is ever informed of what ye do."

There are numerous hadith in which the Prophet forbade the killing of women, children the elderly, and anyone not involved in the fighting.

And to add to the point about the conquest of Mecca, the Prophet did not act on the Arab custom of revenge. When he entered Mecca, he gave amnesty to all of it's inhabitants, with (I believe) the exception of 7 war criminals who were executed. Hardly a bloodbath.

Again, this is my understanding of Islam from the sources. There are some Muslims who act contrary to the teachings of the Quran, but the Quran itself will be a witness against them on the day of Judgement.

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dooley] #243745
12/31/08 16:31
12/31/08 16:31
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,838
take me down to the paradise c...
Cowabanga Offline
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Cowabanga  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,838
take me down to the paradise c...
Quote:
YOU ARE REALY STUPID MOTHERFUCKER IF YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THAT GOD IS SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T NEED ANY PROVES!!!


Hey... Relax man! this is just a topic for discussing! not for insulting!

Quote:
Again, this is my understanding of Islam from the sources. There are some Muslims who act contrary to the teachings of the Quran, but the Quran itself will be a witness against them on the day of Judgement.


This is your understanding of Islam? first ask Muslim guy about Islam (im here! and then, talk about Islam.

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Cowabanga] #243824
01/01/09 01:16
01/01/09 01:16
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 868
Chicago, IL
Dooley Offline OP
User
Dooley  Offline OP
User

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 868
Chicago, IL
As-Salamu Alaikum

I recommend that you read this entire thread from the beginning. I am a Muslim, and I've stated it several times. Didn't you read my posts? I'm defending Islam and arguing that the Quran is true. I started this thread, please read the first post again.


Thanks for contributing, and correcting our friend's attitude smile



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