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Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Crypton] #242979
12/26/08 21:03
12/26/08 21:03
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 868
Chicago, IL
Dooley Offline OP
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Dooley  Offline OP
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I wasn't arguing that the Quran is based on the Bible. I was mentioning that the Quran itself states that Jesus (Isa) foretold of the coming of Muhammad.

Why would Jews and Christians put references to an Arab prophet in their own books? As a former Christian I was very curious about this, because if there were references in the Bible about Muhammad, it would serve as strong evidence that the Quran is true.

It also serves to demonstrate that the Bible was originally written or inspired by someone or something other than Jewish and Christian clergy.

The Islamic perspective on this is that all the prophets were inspired by God (Allah). Any similarities which occur between Islam and older religions, is because they have the same origin - Allah. Any differences which we see, are the result of human tampering with the older texts.

I wrote a bit of a book about this whole study, if anyone is interested in reading it:
http://www.schmidt-gallery.com/Bible_in_islam_v008.pdf

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: MAGA] #243019
12/27/08 06:45
12/27/08 06:45
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,838
take me down to the paradise c...
Cowabanga Offline
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Cowabanga  Offline
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take me down to the paradise c...
Originally Posted By: MAGA
Originally Posted By: Kokirikind
No one of theme are true...



Man you'll know witch of them true, when ur time will come...


You're right.

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Cowabanga] #243040
12/27/08 12:08
12/27/08 12:08
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 24
germany --> nrw --> aachen
D
Davidus Offline
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Davidus  Offline
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germany --> nrw --> aachen
Greetings,

i thing more important than the question
"is a religion true" is the question:
What have this religion bought to the poeple ?
How much genocide ? And on the other hand side :
How much better are people who have a bad life by having this religion ?

Imagine you were a poor farmer in medival times, how much better would your life be if you (belive) to know for sure
that sometimes later(after dead) you will be very happy ... ?

In fact, a lot of religions have bought genocide to people,
i don't know much enough about islam,
but our christian religion bought us the crusades,
and it set a lot of people alite who had other believes ...

nowadays, the easiest way to decide might be to look at the people who are religious ...
the ones who are feeling loved by an almighty entity look very calm and happy ... but the ones who feel watched and controlled from a cold god, or even feeling hell,
are feeling like theyare only worthless sinners ... poor people, in my opinion.

I won't propagate for a special religion here,
as i told: everyone should judge for himself,
these are only some ideas ;-)

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Davidus] #243354
12/29/08 16:51
12/29/08 16:51
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 868
Chicago, IL
Dooley Offline OP
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Dooley  Offline OP
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Posts: 868
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This seems to be a valid point. However, the history of humanity is one of genocide. This is a human problem, not a religious problem. You don't need religion to have genocide. Look at Stalin's Russia, where millions were murdered in the name of communism, or Hitler's Germany, where Jews were murdered in the name of German nationalism. There are many examples from history if we're open minded enough to look.

It's true many people have used religion as a 'justification' to do very bad things, but we need to look at the teachings of that religion if we want to find the real cause.

This also means not taking things in the religion out of context. Yes there are verses in the Quran about fighting and warfare. However, if you read the whole thing, it becomes apparent that fighting is always in response to aggression. It is not legitimate to go fight, unless there is someone fighting against you already, or some other form of oppression which needs to be overcome.

The Bible is a little different, and this is one of the reasons I think the Quran is more reliable (i.e. true). In Deuteronomy 20, God is allegedly giving instructions to Moses on how to conduct a war. In it, the rule is that in any city in the 'Holy Land', the Israelites are to kill anything that breathes. This is a clear justification for genocide.

I don't think most Christians and Jews would argue that such acts are really part of their belief. They probably would say that they applied at that particular time only.

However, verses like that made me really question who actually wrote the Bible. Again, to sum up the Muslim view of the Bible, we believe it was revealed to prophets Moses, Jesus, David and possibly others, but over time the text was altered, whether deliberately or by scribal errors. The Quran is free of such problems, which makes it more reliable.

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dooley] #243362
12/29/08 17:13
12/29/08 17:13
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,838
take me down to the paradise c...
Cowabanga Offline
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Cowabanga  Offline
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take me down to the paradise c...
Now, what you're saying. Bible, or Quran is true?
Choose one. and "The End".

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Cowabanga] #243385
12/29/08 19:10
12/29/08 19:10
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 93
YOU AINT GONNA NEED THAT!
M
MAGA Offline
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MAGA  Offline
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M

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 93
YOU AINT GONNA NEED THAT!
FOR ME QURAN!!! Religion in a one God!!!

Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: MAGA] #243412
12/29/08 22:14
12/29/08 22:14
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline
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Dan Silverman  Offline
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Quote:
This seems to be a valid point. However, the history of humanity is one of genocide. This is a human problem, not a religious problem. You don't need religion to have genocide. Look at Stalin's Russia, where millions were murdered in the name of communism, or Hitler's Germany, where Jews were murdered in the name of German nationalism. There are many examples from history if we're open minded enough to look.


Such as Mohammad attacking and killing those within Mecca because they would not convert to his one, true religion?

Quote:
Muhammad gained few followers early on, and was met with hostility from some Meccan tribes; he and his followers were treated harshly. To escape persecution Muhammad and his followers migrated to Medina (then known as Yathrib) in the year 622 CE. This event, the Hijra, marks the beginning of the Islamic calendar. In Medina, Muhammad united the conflicting tribes, and after eight years of fighting with the Meccan tribes, his followers, who by then had grown to ten thousand, conquered Mecca.


URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

Quote:
From their base in Medina, the Muslims took to raiding Meccan caravans. In 624, they won the battle of Badr and took much booty. Now secure in Medina, Muhammad expelled the Banu Qaynuqa, one of the three main Jewish tribes, and ordered the assassination of the poetess Asma bint Marwan and then the poet Abu Afak, who had been critical of his rule. Subsequently, after each major battle, Muhammad destroyed a different one of the Jewish tribes that had welcomed him and his followers to Medina. After Uhud, he expelled the Banu Nadir, and following the Battle of the Trench in 627, the Muslims accused the Jews of Banu Qurayza of conspiring with the Meccans. They beheaded the adult male members of the Banu Qurayza, and sole the women and children as slaves.


URL: http://www.mideastweb.org/Middle-East-Encyclopedia/muhammad.htm

These quotes were found from a very quick Google search. None of them were pulled from anti-Muslim sites. However, we see Mohammad, the founder of Islam, attacking and, in some cases, utterly destroying tribes of people. If Mohammad is the founder of Islam and, as some believe, the giver of the Qur'an, then there are certainly problems with the Qur'an. While I personally think (and honest historians believe) Mohammad did NOT write the Qur'an, the Qur'an certainly seems to follow Mohammad's mindset of violence toward those that are not willing to accept Mohammad's message.

Quote:
This also means not taking things in the religion out of context. Yes there are verses in the Quran about fighting and warfare. However, if you read the whole thing, it becomes apparent that fighting is always in response to aggression. It is not legitimate to go fight, unless there is someone fighting against you already, or some other form of oppression which needs to be overcome.


There are more than verses about fighting and warfare. There are verses in the Qur'an about killing unbelievers that refuse to convert (including Jews and Christians). There are examples in the Qur'an about giving people a chance to accept and then, if they do not, to kill them with the sword. The concept of these verses is not about warfare (as in one nation defending itself against another) but about a different kind of warfare (attacking the unbeliever).

Quote:
9:111 Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.


Quote:
4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,


Quote:
I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. Qur'an 8:12.


Quote:
Sura3 3:64: Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers and has prepared for them a Blazing Fire to dwell in forever. No protector will they find, nor savior. That Day their faces will be turned upside down in the Fire. They will say: Woe to us! We should have obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger! Our Lord! Give them double torment and curse them with a very great Curse!


Quote:
Sura 5:51: O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.


Quote:
9.123: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you


I could go on and on and, yes, some of these verses (and many others) are in the context of fighting and warfare, but the Qur'an seems to speak of a continual war that is going on between the "true believers" of Islam and the "unbelievers" that are opposed to it. It is clear, from the reading of the Qur'an that even the other monotheistic faiths (Jews and Christians) are not accepted and not to be counted as friends, but are to be treated as unbelievers and no help is to be accepted from them. Instead, the Muslim is to fight against them with whatever power he possesses.

I will agree with you that the Bible is a bloody book and that the Bible speaks of genocide in a positive light (read First Samuel 15 as an example). But the Qur'an seems to be no different and, in fact, may be worse. The Christian Bible at least has the New Testament and there is no real war declared therein (within the New Testament) but, instead, the turning of the other cheek, etc. This section of the Bible tends to tone down the Old Testament's teachings of war against the pagans. However, as we have seen from history, these New Testament teachings often were not enough. We have seen many Christian armies flooding the plains as they marched to war. But the Qur'an seems to be filled with bloodshed between its words of wisdom and peace. The concept of "holy war" (Jihad) seems arise from the Qur'an as a sweet aroma to Allah.

No, the Qur'an is a bloody book and a book of warfare against those that refuse to accept its teachings. This is not based just on the actions of millions of Muslims worldwide, but on the writings found within the Qur'an itself. It is not just the oral traditions of the various Muslim sects either, but within the very pages of the book supposedly written by Mohammad.


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Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dan Silverman] #243413
12/29/08 22:22
12/29/08 22:22
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline
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Dan Silverman  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Quote:
Now, what you're saying. Bible, or Quran is true?
Choose one. and "The End".


Is it really that simple? I can just "choose one" and the choice does not matter? You say the Qur'an is true. Some say the Bible is true. I say neither is true. Are all three of these choices OK with you? Can all three be true? Obviously they cannot. So your statement does not help at all. You cannot just choose one and be done with it. It is not like going to a restaurant and choosing from a menu where your choice is simply a matter of preference. If, somehow, the Bible or the Qur'an were true, then eternity is in the balance! So it would be a good thing for a person to at least know WHY he has accepted or rejected either the Bible or the Qur'an.

Quote:
FOR ME QURAN!!! Religion in a one God!!!


Well, that's convincing! If it's good enough for you, then it has to be good enough for everyone else, right? But why is the Qur'an the true holy book for you? Why is Allah the true God for you? Have you examined this to see if it is so or do you just accept whatever you have been told? Just curious.

Oh! And I could say:

FOR ME NEITHER QUR'AN NOR THE BIBLE!!! Religion is false and there is no god!!!

But, because I said that, does that make it true? Does that convince you? No! Then why say it? In other words, your statement let's all of us know what YOU believe, but it does not add to the context of this thread in any way.


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Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: Dan Silverman] #243419
12/29/08 23:11
12/29/08 23:11
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 93
YOU AINT GONNA NEED THAT!
M
MAGA Offline
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MAGA  Offline
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M

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 93
YOU AINT GONNA NEED THAT!
OK! So what do you think?! You say there is no God! OK then what will hape with you afther you dead??? CAN YOU ANSWER ME???? I think NO! You know why? There is no one can tell you that!!! You think that you will live 70, ok even 100 years, and afther death nothing will happen??? You know in medicine they found that afther death humans wight be come lighter to 20 gr. you know why??? Becouse his soul lives his body! You can find it in Quran!!! You know one of the most popular sea investigators found that in sea cold and warm waters streaming together and not mixing!!! He be came most popular afther he discoved that! But he was very confused when he found it in Quran! The thing which he just discovered he found in muslims holy book! Afther that he ba came a muslim! There are many of great people be came also muslim, becouse they found things which they didn't know before, which they just discovered which was in Quran! Don't think that if you don't see it, it doesn't exist! There are many things aroung which you don't see but it exist and many of people can say you that(like Qxygen for example)!!! Quran is the only book that gives as may be not all but most of the answers for our questions!!!
If you not agree belive me it's your problem!!!

Last edited by MAGA; 12/29/08 23:45.
Re: Bible or Quran - which is true? [Re: MAGA] #243436
12/30/08 00:22
12/30/08 00:22
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline
Senior Expert
Dan Silverman  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Quote:
OK! So what do you think?! You say there is no God!


First of all, I did not say that. I said "I could say". "Could," in that sentence, means that this is something possible that I could say. The point was, just because someone says it does not make it to be true.

Quote:
OK then what will hape with you afther you dead??? CAN YOU ANSWER ME????


No. And neither can you. You have not been beyond death and back to let us know. You are only getting your information from a book (the Qur'an) and from what you are being told. But your book is not reliable. You believe what it says about life after death because you choose to and not because there is any objective proof for it. So, no, you cannot answer your own question. Don't be a hypocrite and demand someone else answers the question that you yourself cannot.

Quote:
You think that you will live 70, ok even 100 years, and afther death nothing will happen???


It is certainly a possibility. Are there other possibilities? Yes. We can imagine all sorts of things to happen after we die, but how do we know they are true? We can test some of these ideas to some degree. But why should we simply trust some ancient book that has proven itself to be fallible in so many ways and one that shows a God that is lacking in morals at that?!?

Quote:
You know in medicine they found that afther death humans wight be come lighter to 20 gr. you know why??? Becouse his soul lives his body! You can find it in Quran!!!


Try again:

http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp

Quote:
You know one of the most popular sea investigators found that in sea cold and warm waters streaming together and not mixing!!! He be came most popular afther he discoved that! But he was very confused when he found it in Quran! The thing which he just discovered he found in muslims holy book! Afther that he ba came a muslim!


Interesting ... did you know the same story is told about a man discovering the "currents" in the sea from his reading of the Bible? According to this "Christian" tale, it was the man's faith in the Christian God and his reading of the Christian Bible that caused him to discover these things.

Just because there are stories like this does not automatically make them true. In any case, care to share the man's name and the particular verses from the Qur'an that he supposedly found there that were so convincing? I am willing to bet that, even if they are there, they will be so obscure that about a zillion different theories can be made from them. Just take a look at about any of the "Science and Qur'an" sites out there and watch them take supposed proofs from the Qur'an concerning science. I love how they try to get around all the "flat earth" passages (as an example).

Quote:
There are many of great people be came also muslim, becouse they found things which they didn't know before, which they just discovered which was in Quran!


Is this a proof of the authenticity of the Qur'an? If so, then what about the great men (and women) that have become Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jewish, Atheists and Agnostics? Just because some "great" person decides they want to accept a particular religion does not make it true. This is a "non argument".

Quote:
Don't think that if you don't see it, it doesn't exist!


I don't. I cannot see individual atoms, but I believe they are there. We can at least test for these types of things. We can test the Qur'an also and it is found to be a fallible document. So I have no need to trust in the things that it describes that I cannot see (such as its God).

Quote:
Quran is the only book that gives as may be not all but most of the answers for our questions!!!


Uhm ... no. Even the Bible claims to give the answers to most of our questions. The big questions in life tend to be questions like:

- How did we get here (the creation, etc)?
- Why am I here?
- Do I have a purpose?
- Where do I go after I die?
- Is there a form of eternal justice?

Virtually every "holy" book attempts to pass off an answer to these questions and more. The Qur'an is only ONE out of many, many that try to answer these questions. You simply believe that your book is the right one. Everyone believes that their "holy book" has the right answers. So now you have to go back to the book itself and see if it holds up to what can be tested in order to see if it can be trusted for those things that cannot be tested (eternity, God, etc). The Qur'an fails.

Quote:
If you not agree belive me it's your problem!!!


I could say:

If you believe, then that is YOUR problem.

Please understand, I know that you believe the Qur'an and in Allah. Fine. But you have done nothing to provide any proof for your faith. Faith/belief is only as good as the object in which you place it. If that object is not worthy of faith then faith, no matter how devote, will fail in the end. I can have faith that I have 10 billion dollars in my bank account all I want, but if I try to withdraw it then my faith will be proven absolutely wrong. If your faith in the afterlife, as presented in the Qur'an, is wrong, then your faith, no matter how strong, will also likewise fail.

When it comes to religion, it is not really a matter of faith (despite what we are being told by so many preachers and priests). It is really a matter of truth. If the holy books of any religion are not reliable, then they cannot be trusted and especially not for matters of faith.


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