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Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dan Silverman] #241148
12/14/08 18:55
12/14/08 18:55
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A
AlbertoT Offline
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Quote:
most creationists claim the earth (and all of creation) could be up to 20,000 years old and not just 6,000+.


Well it does not make that difference wink

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: AlbertoT] #241152
12/14/08 19:23
12/14/08 19:23
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline
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Dan Silverman  Offline
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Quote:
Well it does not make that difference


I agree. However, if someone wants to argue for or against a view, they should try to present their evidence correctly. I fail at this, but I try. The 6,000+ year date tends to come from Ussher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ussher) who tried to come up with the age of the world based on the Bible. However, organizations like ICR (Institute for Creation Research) and Answers in Genesis use dates that are older than 6,000+ years. I have seen dates ranging from 10,000 - 20,000 years, though others might be used.

To make matters even more confusing, some creationists are "old earth" creationists. As such, they might hold to millions or billions of years.

It might be better, in a discussion on Creationism/Intelligent Design and Evolution, to use terms like "thousands of years" as compared to "billions of years".


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Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dooley] #241155
12/14/08 19:33
12/14/08 19:33
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smitty Offline
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Quote:
Smitty, what I'm trying to say is that this is a simple concept which has been there since the beginning, it's called belief, and doing good. Paul has made it horribly complicated by stating:

"For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law" Romans 3:28


This is not complicated at all if you know Christ as your Saviour and are born again and indwelt with the Holy Spirit to show you what His word means. smile Paul is saying that believers in Christ are justified by faith APART from the works of the law. It is actually a very simple concept. He is saying that the works of the law DO NOT justify anyone. Yes, God wants us to keep His commandments. Are we able to keep His commandments? No. Does God know this? yes. So He sent His Son to be the fulfillment of the Law and the prophets. Does this mean that once we accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour that we should do anything we want to do? Of course not. We should do what we know is right and the Holy Spirit who indwells all born again believers will show you what is right. Will we still sin (miss the mark and break the law)? Yes, but if we confess our sins then Christ is faithful to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. He died for all sins, past, present and future, but we still need to go to Him daily and repent of our daily sins and ask His forgiveness. Yes, the soul that sinneth, it shal die. We all have souls and we all sin. We all will die physically, but only those without Christ will die spiritually. This is the second death which is hell/the lake of fire.

You are also confusing law and grace. The law was given to Israel to show them their need for a Savior, because God knew that no man could keep His law. The law was given to Israel as a schoolmaster to point them to Christ. Jesus was born under the law and He came to fulfill the law and the prophets. He is the fulfillment of the Old Testament, the prophecies and the Law. Grace is unmerited (unearned) favor that God gives us for believing His word. Abraham was before the Law, but he believed God and God credited it to him for righteousness. Those who were under the Law and believed God's word and tried to follow it the best they could, they too were saved by God's grace through faith. Those who did not believe God's word but only followed the Law to be seen by other men, were not saved by God's grace because they did not have faith in God's word. They only followed the Law out of duty because it was what they believed they were suppose to do. It is the same today with all "religions" that think they can obtain God's grace and mercy by doing good works. God wants us to believe His word, not just do good works.

Again, let's look at the verses you quoted from Matthew in context.
Matthew 19
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

This was a rich man who came to Jesus and asked Him how he could inherit eternal life. Jesus asks the man why he calls Jesus good because only God is good. So Jesus tells the man if he wants to have eternal life then he needs to keep the commandments, and He names the common laws, the basic commandments that most people obey. The rich man tells Jesus that he has kept these laws from his youth, but asked what he still lacked.

21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Jesus told the man to give up the things of this world and believe in Jesus, but the man did not want to follow Jesus because he wanted his money and the things of THIS world NOT eternity.

Jesus goes on to tell his disciples
29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

You see, Jesus/God knows that when you follow Jesus, then the world will turn against you. Jesus said that the world hated Him and will hate those who follow Him.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Dan Silverman] #241156
12/14/08 19:51
12/14/08 19:51
Joined: Feb 2004
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sebcrea Offline
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Does it really matter which one of those fairy tales is correct? All religions are ridicules they are believes and not fact's maybe in two thousand years people will think that there were hobbits around our time, that doesn't make it true just because there is a book full of fairy tales.

Young people in school should learn to question things but not on the bases of thier believes but on actual evidence and there is no evidence for the creation theory other than a book of fairy tales, which by the way has counterparts in other religions which tell a total different story.

The earth is 4 billion years old and it has seen many critters but humans are the first one that need to make up ridicules stories and selling them as facts. What's so hard so accept the facts of evolution ? It doesn't make humans so special or whats the problem ?

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: sebcrea] #241159
12/14/08 20:08
12/14/08 20:08
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smitty Offline
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sebcrea, I truly feel sorry for you and for people like you. You are lost and on your way to hell whether you believe it or not. Not believing it is not going to nullify it. You say that believing it does not make it real. Well, when all is said and done and we die, and I am with Christ for eternity, and you are burning in hell forever because you did not want to admit that you (like all of us) are a sinner and aske Christ to save you, then you will know that Christ is Jehovah God/Messiah/Saviour and that you were wrong, but then it will be too late.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: smitty] #241163
12/14/08 20:27
12/14/08 20:27
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,043
Germany
Lukas Offline

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Lukas  Offline

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"sebcrea, I truly feel sorry for you and for people like you."
smitty, I feel sorry for you because you are wasting time and money for your believe and after your death you will realize... nothing! Because when you are dead you are dead and that's it. There is no eternal life.
Your faith bases only on the hope of eternal life, doesn't it? wink And on the fear that that eternal it might be horrible if you don't believe in god?

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: smitty] #241165
12/14/08 20:29
12/14/08 20:29
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smitty Offline
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Here is a story Jesus told. He is right. We have Moses and the prophets, but still men refuse to believe the word of God....even if one rise from the dead.

Luke 16
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Lukas] #241167
12/14/08 20:31
12/14/08 20:31
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smitty Offline
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smitty  Offline
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Lukas, I know what I believe it true because God not man revealed it to me. You have much more to lose than me.

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: Lukas] #241169
12/14/08 20:32
12/14/08 20:32
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,043
Germany
Lukas Offline

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Lukas  Offline

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@Dan:
My first bible inconsistence bases on the fact that there were no lightbulps yet. And such a placeholder light like in a modelling program sounds strange for me.

The second one was more directed to Dooley, who claimed that day could mean millions of years. So you are right, in Christians' faith, who think a day means 24 hours, the plants could have survived wink

Re: Q: Should creationism be taught in shools? -- A: YES! [Re: smitty] #241170
12/14/08 20:37
12/14/08 20:37
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline
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Dan Silverman  Offline
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Posts: 11,321
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Quote:
Dooley said:

I don't think your feelings of right and wrong are different than the Creator's. Yes He allowed evil to exist in this world, but why? What were His other options?

1. Allow no evil at all - this would be a pointless universe. We would all be robots, and would have no free-will.


Just for fun, let's explore option #1:

If this is the case (that evil had to exist or the universe would be a pointless place, we would all be robots and have no free wil) then what does this say about heaven and the afterlife? According to the Bible, heaven is a place without sin and no evil is allowed there. I am assuming (and, yes, I know this is dangerous) that the Qu'ran teaches something similar about the afterlife. If this is so (according to your logic) then eternity is pointless and those that enter in would have no free will.

Quote:
Smitty said:

There are 7 dispensations in the bible:

Innocence
Human Conscience
Human Government
Promise
Law
Grace
Kingdom


You state these as fact when you say "there are". However, only Christians that believe in Dispensationalism believe in biblical dispensations. Covenant theologians do no hold to dispensational views. Even among dispensationalists, the number of dispensations varies. Some see five. Some some more. Yet you state them as fact. In fact, the Bible does not state the seven dispensations nor does it give them names. Theologians create them based on what they believe to be seen in the dispensations they think they see in the Bible. Some even disagree on what makes each dispensation distinct from another. It all depends on which author you read.


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