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Theories more important than laws and facts #240379
12/10/08 17:58
12/10/08 17:58
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LarryLaffer Offline OP
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I'm putting an end to this for all the smitties, HyperGraphs, Locoweeds and mp_developers out there.



Transcript of the first 2:43 minutes into the video:

---------------------
You know the terms that we use in science are used very specifically in science as terms of art but they have very different meanings on the street and this is the source of a lot of confusion. When scientists talk about fact they're talking about confirmed observations and facts are interesting but they're not terrible exciting, they don't do a whole lot for you, facts are a dime a dozen there's facts all over the place.

A hypothesis is a testable statement. You're saying, what's the relationship between this and this and you go out and test it and you either accept or reject your statement or that relationship. Hypothesis are very useful they're very helpful, they help us build a theory. Theories are the most important things in science, theory to a scientist means explanation. These are logical constructs of facts, of tested hypothesis, of laws, of all kinds of stuff, that taken together and put in a logical descriptive fashion help us understand some kind of natural phenomenon.

Most lay people think that theories are guesses or hunches or something that you don't have to take terribly seriously it's not such a big deal.. completely opposite in science, theories are the most important things in science.

What a lot of unfortunate textbooks lead people to misunderstand is that a really good theory grows up into a law. As if theories are refined and then become laws and laws are somehow more important than theories. In science actually what a law is, is a descriptive generalization. So we talk about the laws of thermodynamics that tell you about heat under different circumstances. You hear about the laws, and study the laws of, heredity that Mendel developed. Because theories explain laws.

So in general the hierarchy of explanation is very different in science than in general public. The general public puts facts on top, laws next, hypothesis and then theories; maybe theories and hypothesis can move around a little bit. In science on the other hand, theories are the most important thing, laws are next most important, hypothesis are next most important and perhaps the least most important part of a scientific explanation is facts, because facts are a dime a dozen. And facts don't explain anything.
---------------------


I'd be glad if this would become a sticky for everyone to read, but I just wanted to post it here and reference it everytime it becomes needed, because everytime i post a link to this it becomes buried under some post and I have to do the explaining again and again and again..


Cheers,
Aris


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Re: Theories more important than laws and facts [Re: LarryLaffer] #240382
12/10/08 18:17
12/10/08 18:17
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Yo! Larry! Dude! Did you even read my posts in that other thread? I was supporting you by talking about theory and law. I was supporting you went saying that the laws of our country were not based on the Bible. Man!

Re: Theories more important than laws and facts [Re: HyperGraph] #240384
12/10/08 18:26
12/10/08 18:26
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LarryLaffer Offline OP
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I did. Did you read mine?

Originally Posted By: HyperGraph
About 99% (just a guess) of all science is a theory. After a theory comes a law. Very little is considered a law in science (Second Law of Thermodynamics, etc). So virtually everything you do or know from science is from a theory. A theory is very close to a law (in most cases). So things that are considered a theory are usually true in virtually every test and can be "as good as" a law.



Cheers,
Aris


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Re: Theories more important than laws and facts [Re: LarryLaffer] #240390
12/10/08 18:49
12/10/08 18:49
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From what little I know, there does seem to be a hierarchy from hypothesis to theory with law and theory being almost the same (these days). A hypothesis is defined as this:

Hypothesis

A hypothesis is an educated guess, based on observation. Usually, a hypothesis can be supported or refuted through experimentation or more observation. A hypothesis can be disproven, but not proven to be true.

A theory as this:

Theory

A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. A theory is valid as long as there is no evidence to dispute it. Therefore, theories can be disproven. Basically, if evidence accumulates to support a hypothesis, then the hypothesis can become accepted as a good explanation of a phenomenon. One definition of a theory is to say it's an accepted hypothesis.

And a law thus:

Law

A law generalizes a body of observations. At the time it is made, no exceptions have been found to a law. Scientific laws explain things, but they do not describe them. One way to tell a law and a theory apart is to ask if the description gives you a means to explain 'why'.

Laws are considered "fact" ... non-changeable ... absolute. Hypothesis are considered guesses. Theories are considered "proven" hypothesis, but they are left open for the possibility of error ... that not everything was taken into account. However, Law and theory are so closely related that they are often understood the mean the same thing.

Here are some links:

http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistry101/a/lawtheory.htm

http://evidence-based-science.blogspot.com/2008/02/what-is-scientific-law-theory.html

http://physics.suite101.com/article.cfm/theory_vs__hypothesis_vs__law

http://sci.waikato.ac.nz/evolution/Theories.shtml

However, it seems historically that the word "law" and "theory" were used a bit differently and that today the word "theory" takes an equal footing with "law". From some things I have read, it seems that people drew back from using the term "law" a bit because it indicates that what is being referenced is absolutely true in every single instance without exception. To know this for a fact (a "law") would require the ability to test under ever single circumstance and that is not practical or possible. So the word theory seems to have moved to the dominant position and has taken an equal place along side "law".

Re: Theories more important than laws and facts [Re: HyperGraph] #240417
12/10/08 21:06
12/10/08 21:06
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LarryLaffer Offline OP
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Hey,

First, I want to say you were the last on my list that I thought was abusing the terms and I generally agree with all of your other posts in the Creationism thread. I'm sorry if you took this thread personal, I mostly want to inform than attack anyone. However, I added you in because you said that a theory can later be upgraded to a law and that the law of thermodynamics is above theories.

About your post here, you were doing great until this paragraph:

Quote:
Laws are considered "fact" ... non-changeable ... absolute. Hypothesis are considered guesses. Theories are considered "proven" hypothesis, but they are left open for the possibility of error ... that not everything was taken into account. However, Law and theory are so closely related that they are often understood the mean the same thing.


A law is not considered "fact" or non-changeable or absolute. It's not in anyway more valid than a theory. What it is, is a sub-part of a theory and as you correctly stated, the difference between a theory and a law is that inside a law it's not included the part of "why" something happens, but only focuses on explaining the subject at hand. Also, in a theory there's always everything being taken into account and if any scientific evidence doesn't go along with that theory, then it's not called a theory anymore, but..nothing smile

In any case, thanks for those links, they add nicely to this thread. I don't mean to nitpick too much into people's words and the only reason i'm making such a fuss of all this, is that the whole term: "Theory of Evolution" has been abused so much by christians who just have the terms wrong. Pages upon pages of threads that go on forever, just because of a simple misunderstanding around terms so this thread is just a gentle push into the right direction for future EvolutionVSCreationism discussions.


Cheers,
Aris


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Re: Theories more important than laws and facts [Re: LarryLaffer] #240425
12/10/08 21:29
12/10/08 21:29
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Hey! Thanks for the clarification! It helps! I admit that, until you started this thread, I did not as clear an idea about the difference/similarities between law and theory. Cool! Thanks!

Re: Theories more important than laws and facts [Re: HyperGraph] #240709
12/12/08 01:14
12/12/08 01:14
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Joozey Offline
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It's very useful to know the exact definitions, thanks for this read smile.


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Re: Theories more important than laws and facts [Re: Joozey] #240715
12/12/08 02:03
12/12/08 02:03
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okay, remember when i asked if you had mixed hypothesis around in there, larry? now i know why there was a misunderstanding:

when you described "importance in science", i thought it meant, "holds more water", or "is more definitely true", and was wondering why a "fact" is so low, and why a "hypothesis" is above anything at all.

what's actually described is really how much useful information is there, i guess. or how interesting they are. the scale is not a measure of truth.

on the other end of the scale are those who misunderstand and say "it's a theory because it's true". it's actually a theory because it could be true, based on scientific evidence. there are other criteria, but you get the idea.

the theory that the earth was the centre of the solar system and the sun revolved around it was a perfectly valid theory until proven wrong.

so, yeah, "theory" is thrown around in the wrong way, and are (in general) no more valid than laws. but be careful explaining it. the impression is often left that a scientific theory is always true, but a theory is actually just a plausibility.

julz


Formerly known as JulzMighty.
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Re: Theories more important than laws and facts [Re: JibbSmart] #240746
12/12/08 10:09
12/12/08 10:09
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LarryLaffer Offline OP
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LarryLaffer  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: JulzMighty
on the other end of the scale are those who misunderstand and say "it's a theory because it's true".


Well, Julz, I guess there will always be people misunderstanding everything no matter how much you try. That's why I made this post, to clear up at least one of the million terms we use around here on a daily basis which have been twisted around from their original meaning so much they barely mean anything anymore, or the whole threads around them. Take God, for example. Every time anyone uses the word "God" I bet he means a whole different thing, but because we rarely take the effort to clarify ourselves, conversations go on and on with both parties talking about completely different subjects each.

The video makes it blatantly clear what 'theory' means.. It does mentions how theories get replaced all the time, how sometimes they need to change stuff in them and how no theory is implied to be in all certainty correct but what humans and technology has managed to learn about a subject up to today. I've also mentioned unlimited times how you can never ever prove a theory. Einstein said once: "No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.". So.. as long as this term is concerned, if a person actually watched the video, read this thread and still has a misconception about what theory means... I have no words of comfort for your dejected spirit.. Obviously, reading text is not really 'your thing'. But I'm fairly certain that such a person doesn't really exist.

Cheers,
Aris


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Re: Theories more important than laws and facts [Re: LarryLaffer] #240763
12/12/08 12:01
12/12/08 12:01
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Quote:
Well, Julz, I guess there will always be people misunderstanding everything no matter how much you try. That's why I made this post...

The video makes it blatantly clear what 'theory' means.

absolutely. you've made it very, very clear. this should be stickied so that anyone who uses the "just a theory" argument can be text-abused without excuse.

not literally, but yeah...

julz


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