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Re: Bacteria evolve in lab over 20 years [Re: delerna] #234490
11/03/08 09:46
11/03/08 09:46
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No, i was merely attempting to highlight the double standard that evolution having a small gene pool is nothing to be concerned about, but the flood story could't possibly be true because the gene pool was too small.
Double standards like this are common in discussions such as this one (from both sides of the fence).


Double standards? Did you even read my answer? Nope, not likely. I said evolution happens normally at populations, not individuums.

But even when we would talk about a small gene pool, there is a difference between a minimum gene pool of let's at least say 100 individuums to let the species survive, and the told two from the bible. Species with a gene pool below 100 individuums has a very high chance to die off. We can follow that at the moment at too much species every day. And you want to tell me that ALL species survived with just TWO of them?

Quote:
Thats the problem with science, it can only interpret the facts based on current knowledge and if there is anything that evolves it is definitely "current knowledge".
So, unless you believe as one scientist I have heard, "Science is dead, we now know everything", then there is no firm ground for you stand on while you make your absolute assertions that your beliefs are based on "solid evidence"


Weird point of view. The problem is at your end. Science takes at least the facts into account. While faith just presents fairy tales. Science searches for truth. They present what they find. When they would find a proof for a god then they would present it. Faith digs for henchman. And uses the worst tricks to get them. Up to murder. Fear and fright are the weapons of faith. Truth the weapon of science. So who is to trust?

Quote:
I think we can all agree that science is largely assemling facts and then using logic,common scence, derived knowledge and imagination in an attempt to make sense of those facts. I think we also can all agree that logic,common scence, derived knowledge and imagination are tools that are just as prone to error, misrepresentation and bare faced lies as they are to the discovery of truth.


Again, i disagree here. When a thousand facts points into one direction, and not a single one in another direction, then i choose the direction in which the facts points. No need to introduce an imaginary ghost. Even more when every new found fact fits perfectly and points in the same direction.

And no, having facts doesn't mean to have errors and misinterpretations in the first place. It means in the first place to have facts. Proovable stuff. No matter how hard you try to twist and discredit them. Facts stays facts.

You trust a 2000 years old book. A single book. Written by a few humans. Based at fairy tales and myths from before 2000 years. An age that is fullfilled with gods and myths and fairy tales. But you distrust whole libraries, written by millions of humans, full of today knowledge and myriades of proovable facts. Sorry, but from my angle of view your brain must be turned off. They have really catched you smile

Hmm, again i can see in your argumentation to proof Bible, myths and fairy tales true by trying to disprove science and facts. And again, saying the evolution theory is wrong doesn't automatically mean the bible is right.

Facts please.


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Re: Bacteria evolve in lab over 20 years [Re: Tiles] #234493
11/03/08 09:53
11/03/08 09:53
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Pangea, the latest super continent, dates back into 300 - 150 million years bc.

I do not know, let alone understand the techniques used to age rocks. So I cannot comment.


Easy. Use the drifting speed of continents, and then date back. You don't even need to age the rocks for that.

While at it, when a aging method for rocks says this stone is 200 million years old AND the continental drift says the same AND radio carbon method says the same AND the layering of the stones says the same, THEN it is very likely that this rock is 200 million years old. And when NO fact points in another direction, then it is very unlikely that this rock is just a few thousand years old.

You still miss the masses of facts and evidences that nowadays exists to prove or disprove something. Same ratio than between one book and library over library i would say smile

Last edited by Tiles; 11/03/08 09:59.

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Re: Bacteria evolve in lab over 20 years [Re: Tiles] #234498
11/03/08 10:05
11/03/08 10:05
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Side question Delerna, if you believe in God and all his wonders, do you need
to believe the he kept small gene pools clean? After all, if 'He' is running
the show, then Genetics is just science's, possibly faulty interpretation
of what 'He' is doing.
No, I don't, I don't know and I don't feel a great need to know. And mabe genetics is based on "faulty interpretation"? (I actually don't believe that, but it wouldn't be the first time now would it?)


You don't feel a great need to know? That explains your scary lack of basic knowledge. But you say you can disprove libraries over libraries full of knowledge. How when you don't even know what they say?

You say the interpretation is faulty. But you don't even know the "interpretation" nor all the facts that leaded to this interpretation. You know small fragments. You twist this fragments. And say that is the proof that evolution is wrong. Good job.

I for myself have been in a quarry before. I have seen fossils in the layers. Evolution theory fits perfectly into what i have seen with my own eyes, with what i have held in my own hands.

Last edited by Tiles; 11/03/08 10:21.

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Re: Bacteria evolve in lab over 20 years [Re: Tiles] #234526
11/03/08 12:51
11/03/08 12:51
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My concern with it is the assumption that the ratio has always been the same as it is today. If, the ratio 10,000 years ago was half of what it is today then things that died 10,000 years ago would appear to have died 20,000 years ago.
Conversely it the ratio was double then it would appear to have died only 5,000 years ago.


There is not a single proof for the theory that time was faster or slower in the past, that the ratio has changed. Facts please.

What is true is that the time runs slower when you come close to light speed. Or in gravity fields. Measurable with the satelites that rotates around the earth. Here the time goes a bit slower, speaking of a milifraction of a milisecond. But there is no negative gravity. And so no way to speed up life on earth in such a dramatic manner to win thousands of years. There would be the theorethical way to slow it down in such a dramatic manner to win thousands of years. But the gravity/acceleration would kill all life then.

Nonlinear time, absolute to the universe, would not work. The whole physics would fall apart, chemical processes stop working. Because all is bound to energy, mass and time, it is bound to E=Mc². And this means the time has to be constant, linear. Because else you would change the light speed constant, and the formula quits working.

Ah, who cares about a formula you mean? Well, what happens to an atom that looses constantly energy? It will fall apart into radiation. What happens to an atom that gets constantly energy? It will heaten up. Up to the point where it becomes a plasma. Neither radiation nor plasma are really healthy for life. But this will happen when E becomes unequal Mass and time².

Nope, just letting things run faster or slower doesn't work without smashing the Universe into pieces.

Let's just for fun think about this case from another angle that could workaround the E=Mc² problem. Let faster or slower time happen relative to the universe. The whole universe becomes faster or slower, not just the content. So the life would also live faster or slower, dependand to the whole system. Then in the end they would have always lived the same time, no matter if they were in the faster episode or in the slower. Because it happened relative to the whole system. Which means it happens for the viewer linear, not nonlinear. There wouldn't be a difference smile

Nope, there is no nonlinear time. No matter from which angle you look. Time has to be linear. Else the Universe would disappear, it would break the causality.


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Re: Bacteria evolve in lab over 20 years [Re: Tiles] #234531
11/03/08 13:02
11/03/08 13:02
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Hmm, yeah, you can also distrust everything and everybody. But that is no solution.

In the end when a thrown stone comes down again, and this again and again, then there is a high chance that there is gravity. Okay, i am wrong, it is a god up there that throws the stone back grin


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