I guess if you think that you have just made a professional market analysis then you should be proud of yourself, but there are much smarter statistical mathmaticians and economists looking at game trends and game sales than you. And believe me, those guys are pretty confused over the game industry right now.

In a sense you are right, if you want to compete with so called hard-core games you might fail, but if you have your own ideas you could revolutionize the game industry.

All it takes is a new idea. I picture myself as sort of a computer scientist rather than just a game developer. I am constantly in a lab trying new ideas. Like any scientist, if you come upo with a new invention you can change the world. If not, you continue to go "back to the drawing board"

I got into game design and development 7 or 8 years ago,...thats almost a whole decade ago! If I have been trying this long I will not be giving up to make bunny games any time in the future.

Casual games are fine, IM not condemning them, but I personally would rather shovel cow dung then make MArio jumping around.

I don't know if that was directed at me or Spike, but to be honest, it wasn't really an analysis so much in that I thoroughly checked the market, but more based on my own experience and what AAA developers tend to scream from time to time (as in 'more casual gamers' and 'there's more money in casual games to be made' things like that) and you are right there are people out there doing a way more professional job at that.



I understand what you mean, but when I think about indie developers, I'm not thinking about Tetris, Bejeweled and all that crap.

A Mario-clone might be what I'm talking about to some extent, but then I'm thinking about a true indie game-version of it like for example Braid. Yes, it's basically just another Mario clone, but it has really innovative gameplay that makes it incredible.

This is exactly why I think people should stop abusing the word 'casual' for the 'smaller' games we should be talking about when it's about indie games... Take games like Aquaria, Cortex Command, Uplink, DefCon, Braid, Mr Robot and a whole bunch more. I would not categorize them as 'casual', but instead as 'indie'. Those games are nothing like Bejeweled, Tetris, the countless of PacMan and BreakOut clones that I would call 'casual' games...

Cheers

Back to the part about experience... In my experience, doing about the hardest project type there is, I would suggest the following to any new game maker.

1) spend the $50 or less on an old computer that runs windows 95

2) get DOOM and/or DOOM2

3) Make your own DOOM levels

4) Now learn to convert the textures, sounds, sprites etc

5) Now get Gamestudio, and make a level.. not just any level, but reproduce a REAL location

The reason i bring up making doom levels first, is because the graphics are bad, and the game engines very limited.
This will teach you how to 'fake' things like lighting and shadows, and creating objects with only box shapes.

You'll be working in DOS, so you'll learn how to use command lines.

When you convert levels, you'll learn to use only power of 2 sized 'pictures', and learn very basic artistry. You'll also learn how to fake things more, how to take a large wall texture, and shrink it down to only 256 x 256.

Game engines today will easily use photographic quality textures. But if you don't know how to adjust them to look perfect for their use, your whole level will look wrong. learn how to make them appear as one thing, and that means learning to edit pixel by pixel in an older engine.

Finally, making a level to use a real life location is as hard as it gets.

You, like I did, will think it easy... because everything is already 'mapped out' for you as a guide. But thats why its hard.. YOU dont choose where the tree goes, or the park bench, and you don't chose what they look like...
...noooo.. you have to make everything as it is in real life, and THAT is hard.

OK enough of that... even if the bigwig companies are starting to sell casual games, it is true that they have bigwigs that 'vote' on ideas...

And we know those people just THINK theyre smart, and they will not make certain games because the content may be too risky, whereas we can make anything we want.

Look at id software. One of the big guys, always ahead in the game engine department... whats their latest project?

Another DOOM!

Like most big companies, theyre sticking with a popular title instead of risking doing anyhing else.

Look at how many GTA games there are...

Big companies are cowards who wont try anything new. Thats where we come in

For the OP(original post)

Yeah I aqree, if smaller means casual than I agree.

There are tons of stories like this, I was just reading today about these guys; just 10 years ago they were just fresh out of college working out of a garage, now this year they are accepting an academy award, you can read it here:

http://www.nextlimit.com/newsletters/may08/nl_turning_ten.html

All this money because they developed a few nice algorithms...which were based on other mathmaticians!

The field of 3d is WIDE WIDE open, and I will not be delegated to some 'casual gaming' catagory because spike had bad luck selling monster madness. Spike, get a clue, if monster madness didnt sell was because your ideas just didnt work. If your game isnt good it doesnt mean the entire indie gamers should quit.

Now rant is over.

I agree that casual gaming is getting bigger, and triple A titles arent selling as well, but thats because of other reasons, which have nothing to do with indie gamers. Casual games are selling because they offer more variety than big games. Basically in this age people are just making newer adaptations of the same old ideas. Thats why game sales are down.

Exactly! Big Companies are run by market research. Everyone copies everyone else. If someone gets a new idea, everybody tries to produce variations of it.Nothing new is produced, just small changes.


I agree with you BlueBeast.

What about this elephant in the living room?

Big companies have access to testkits whilst indies are marginalised to the PC market. Ok we have XNA but what about the Wii, the dominant console for the casual market?

If Nintendo were really open to the indie developer then they would have a crap load of innovative content (which is frankly in great need) but unfortunately due to their family friendly idealism (MadWorld seems to be the exception) they dont want to taint their image or are just not interested which is a bit sad.

It is not the entire truth if you say: "big companies are cowards."

Many of them published innovative projects. I read an article about that and it was easy to see that another version like Call of Duty 4, Quake 4 or GTA 4, Sims 71 sells much much better than a new innovative idea. The usual gamer is suspicious of new technologies and new ideas. They are afraid that it will be less fun. They don't feel comfortable to risk their money to just check that out.

Because of that new ideas are often not successful in a commercial way. Big publishers only see the money. But the real one to blame is YOU, the gamer

Nevertheless there are some smaller groups that are interested in new ideas but this is simply a smaller market. And this can indeed be an interesting market for an indie project.

I have to agree with many of Spike's points, but i have to say that there is nothing really new about it...

As many of you already recognized is the casual gaming market in an big rise atm. But we know or should know that the coregamers is our focus - since we want Video games be Art! As the Lead Director of Eidos said (Last year at GCDC in Leipzig): its up to you, the upcoming Developer, to return to the way of the Game ARTISTS.

Casual games reaches people who didn't play any game before, but they dont earn as much money as a Core games. Most Casual gamer buy 1-3 games a year (low Price Games). Most Core gamers buy up to 8 titels a year (Most AAA Games).

And the other Thing is that to develop casual games is ...uuuuh... BORING! at least to me and my team ... We was forced to develop 2 casual games last and this year ... and it wasn't the big thing we wanted to do at all. And since the new Law from July, 1st our 2nd Game is banned before its supposed to launce next month ...

Nevermind ... just hold on the Core games if you want to enjoy your work - thats what i would tell you and what many people at GCDC and GDC told me

So out there, have a nice Day and do what you like!
If it's good, they'll buy it, even its no casual

I think portals was very innovative, and it sold great. Same with HALO, rayman and same will it be with spore. Big companies make great new innovative games (and if they are sequels to the previous story, it doesn't mean they are not innovative anymore).

If you drag one idea too much around, the public will discard it as well. Especially if your new "same-idea" game turns out to be worse than it's ancestors.

you obviously havent read what i wrote, or else your wouldnt write something out of context like that -.-

i said its easier for us to do casual games to make money for biger projects, instead of starting with big projects. got the clue?