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Professional Games, Casual and Hobby development #217136
07/21/08 15:35
07/21/08 15:35
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,206
Innsbruck, Austria
sPlKe Offline OP
Expert
sPlKe  Offline OP
Expert

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,206
Innsbruck, Austria
I first wanted to write that in german language, but i realized that this is too important for everyone of us to shut someone out, so i wrote it in english. Please excuse a few typing errors, for i am legastenic.

During this years E3, we saw a massive change in the industry. A change, that goes on for years now, unrecognized but growing.
The casual gamers grow.
It started with the announcement of microsofts avatar system, a cheap Mii ripoff, but clever nontheless.
however, people who own an XBox 360 probably wont give a damn, and the few who will wont base their decision of what console to buy on the fact that the avatars have necks, and the Miis have too, but microsoft choses to ignore them. Who cares anyway?

Core gamers were dissapointed by Nintendo, and the lack of hardcore games. Sony gamers got what they always get, a graphicsl overhaul over an already exisiting game. microsoft is still doing their best, namely stealing, and in pc gameing... was there even any pc gaming at E3 anymore?

thing is, casual games are big. they bring the developers big bucks, big money for little ivnestment. they almost allways sell, and they sell long, not just the ten week span after its release, no they have legs.

look at games like zuma, the clumsys or moorhuhn (chicken shoot)
those games exist for years now, adn are still popular, with new entries any day and each one sells.
nobody gives a damn about a bad game if its only 5 bucks. but the company can make thousands of dollars/euros with those budget games.

you can even sell them online, in those online game portals, and you will sell units.

but what about the hobby game developer, you ask? it is pretty simple.
over the course of four years, a hobby game developer seperated itself from a professionald eveloper miles.
when a game in 2003 had OK graphics, ususally, you were able to reproduce something similar with your hobby team, if you tried hard and knew your stuff.
nowadays, this is just not possible.

not matter what any fanboy of any engine says, if you use a game developing tool like A7, Torque or irrlicht, you may create good lookign results, but those are miles away from what a really god looking game nowadays looks like.

the next hook is, that game developers, especially wannabe game developers, are blinded by the "knowledge" of the internet and tutorials.
they may create a shader or even their own real model, but they are mssing the basics in design and gameplay, because those are things yu learn over time. and this is something, most people dont want to invest. no wonder gamemaker booms, or shooter creator, because you get results easy.

there is a chance, that of 100 "develoeprs" 2 actually finish a game, and 1 of those 2 is actually good. and that is probably a casual game.

you just have to look into the forums. the best games, games, not projects, mind you, are casual games. a7ttitude for example. casual as hell, but fun as hell aswell.
this game is actually worth money, if HeelX gets rid of the A7 monicker and creates a few more graphics and his own music.
you can sell that for 10 bucks online and you get money out of it.

when i released Monster Mega Mayhem, i soon realized that there is no money in hardcore games for us hobby developers anymore. but with casual, there is.

who do you think creates casual games? Nowadays, ubisoft and co realized their money is in casual, but years ago, people like you and me did.
the creator of "Moorhuhn" is rich today. he had nothing back in the day. david jaffe did not create zuma. some unknown dude from somewhere did, and he has his cash now.

the future, my friends, lies in casual gaming for us. hardcore gaming will not die. it never will. but people with money and hardware will create those game sin the future. and if you want to be one of them, get a good idea, create a casual game, take your time, look for a good way to distribute and then you can start being the man who does the hardcore game.

and, on a special note for all the newbies here: dont get me wrong. it is good you want to create a game. but dont think it is going to be easy.
creating a game needs the same things like creating music: knowhow, time and especially money. the best games take each of those. start small, and learn. you never know enough!

hope that helps smile

Re: Professional Games, Casual and Hobby development [Re: sPlKe] #217138
07/21/08 15:44
07/21/08 15:44
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,580
Blade280891 Offline
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Blade280891  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,580
nice read. smile


My Avatar Randomness V2

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And someone buy me roses, and someone burned the church"
Re: Professional Games, Casual and Hobby development [Re: Blade280891] #217149
07/21/08 17:55
07/21/08 17:55
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,815
Finland
Inestical Offline
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Inestical  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,815
Finland
Nice, I agree. =)

Sorry, I made huge post, and then realized none of it actually fit the topic. Well whatever.


"Yesterday was once today's tomorrow."
Re: Professional Games, Casual and Hobby development [Re: Inestical] #217150
07/21/08 17:57
07/21/08 17:57
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer Offline
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Pappenheimer  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
Originally Posted By: Inestical
Nice, I agree. =)

Sorry, I made huge post, and then realized none of it actually fit the topic. Well whatever.


Make the big post, its Morbius! Who knows, maybe, it fits better then most replies in other threads! wink

Re: Professional Games, Casual and Hobby development [Re: Pappenheimer] #217151
07/21/08 18:06
07/21/08 18:06
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 873
S
Shadow969 Offline
User
Shadow969  Offline
User
S

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 873
totally agree here smile

Re: Professional Games, Casual and Hobby development [Re: Shadow969] #217158
07/21/08 19:13
07/21/08 19:13
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,904
H
HeelX Offline
Senior Expert
HeelX  Offline
Senior Expert
H

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,904
Yeah. I got an offer for a7titude on the Dusmania and most of the overnight contest games were casual games, too, nothing big, but they were funny. We got an offer for our game we made (which I will present later here) and I think.. "hell yeah". Who wants to make big games if he can still make small but funny games in that short time. smile Best example: Ichiro's game got onto steam. Really outstanding. And it is Gaaaaame Studioooooo!

By the way, what is a monicker?

Last edited by HeelX; 07/21/08 19:14.
Re: Professional Games, Casual and Hobby development [Re: HeelX] #217163
07/21/08 19:34
07/21/08 19:34
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 116
T
tD_Datura_v Offline
Member
tD_Datura_v  Offline
Member
T

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 116
moniker is not a moniker for monicker.

moniker: alias for +someone / something familiar? a shortened alternate name?
a7ttitude == attitude?

Re: Professional Games, Casual and Hobby development [Re: HeelX] #217164
07/21/08 19:34
07/21/08 19:34
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 952
Cologne
padrino Offline
User
padrino  Offline
User

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 952
Cologne
QFT...
I especially agree with you on the point that hobby developers nowadays simply can't create games that look as amazing as the "professional" games do. Part of the problem is, that the engines that are used, are to general (which they have to be, to offer a wide range of possibilities to all users) to be capable of running games in a quality like, let's say chrysis. Additional to that, the regular gamer nowadays looks at the back of a case, taking an automatic look at the 4 screenshots that are on there and either says: "wow, cool graphics, nice shaders here, let's buy!" or sees "well doesn't look too good really" and throws it back into the box. whilst a couple years ago, people were also having a good look at gameplay, storyline and things like that, people today don't really care if these things are crappy, if the graphics are alright, the game can't be too bad. don't get me wrong, a game with good graphics is a lot of fun, definitly, but a game with medium graphics (and i know what i am talking about here, my 6 year old machine urges me to play only these) can - with the right storytelling - be a hell of a lot more fun. in that, i kinda see a backward-development to the starting days of game design, where shooters without no real story at all (DOOM, Quake...) could facinate people, simply because - well - the graphics were amazing at that time. but i am certain, that in a couple years people will come back to where we were in the past, realizing that gaming isn't just about nice 3D Clouds, Bloom Shaders, but as a movie with great special effects might be nice to look at and thus entertaining, only a game with a good story and background can truly satisfy a real gamer

Re: Professional Games, Casual and Hobby development [Re: padrino] #217172
07/21/08 19:55
07/21/08 19:55
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
Machinery_Frank Offline
Senior Expert
Machinery_Frank  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,121
Potsdam, Brandenburg, Germany
No, people will not come to a new conclusion. Hardcore gamers will not turn into a white bunny playing Tetris all day.

There are several people and several tastes. Some love hardcore some love casual. It just depends.

And since the number of casual gamers is growing it is worth to develop for them. Now all the big publishers are doing it and this leads to a point to wonder if indies are not too late?

Even a casual game is professional. Look into the casual web platforms. Graphics are fantastic, music is great and gameplay is often very good with much gameplay elements, effects and well-thought timing for levels or incentives.

You cannot easily compete as a one-man-army against them. Yes, you can sell an over-night project or A7titude, but it is still another league than the games offered at Steam.
We can take Ichiro as an example. He worked very long and very hard to come to this point. And he did not do everything alone. Even the idea is a derivate of a japanese project. But I consider him very professional though he still is indie.


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Re: Professional Games, Casual and Hobby development [Re: padrino] #217173
07/21/08 19:59
07/21/08 19:59
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
Senior Expert
PHeMoX  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
Good post and good read.

The funny thing is that it's mostly a matter of indie developer attitude thinking they can (or must) compete with the big boys... There are so many people trying to make games that are only really possible with a huge budget, big team and probably a 'better-than-3dgs' engine.

I think a lot of time gets wasted by indie developers all over the place. Casual games, small games and innovative games is where it's at for the indie developer. Really interesting and uncommon / different ideas rarely will get a green light at the big AAA companies. Think about The Sims that had a lot of trouble convincing the people that backed the project with money.

Indie developers, unless they have great talent at making their own tools and engines (Project Offset for example, but they will grow into a AAA company soon, just mark my words. wink ), shouldn't even try to really compete with the AAA games in my opinion.

There's a ton of things indie developers should and can do, but directly competing with the AAA games isn't usually one of them.

Quote:
I guess if you think that you have just made a professional market analysis then you should be proud of yourself, but there are much smarter statistical mathmaticians and economists looking at game trends and game sales than you. And believe me, those guys are pretty confused over the game industry right now.


I agree with both points here by the way. As an example I think it's crazy that those guys think gamers will have no issues with 'shorter' games, as they claim bigger and longer games are becoming too expensive to make.

Also, in general it's no wonder that they are thinking about the casual game market now as profits per project are much higher and it just took a long time for them to realize this.

I do think that in the near future indie developers will get more real competition from the AAA companies when their trend of changing their main focus to the casual game market continues.

Quote:

You cannot easily compete as a one-man-army against them. Yes, you can sell an over-night project or A7titude, but it is still another league than the games offered at Steam.
We can take Ichiro as an example. He worked very long and very hard to come to this point. And he did not do everything alone. I consider him very professional. But yes, he is still indie.


Doesn't that contradict the point you tried to make as Ichiro as far as I know actually used a game studio project to get on steam?

Perhaps I am reading to much into what you've just said, but do you think we should not stick to smaller projects as indies? The over-night projects actually are what people here should make far more often, small accessible games that are fun to play (and fun to make)... It doesn't even have to be real 'casual' games either, there's a lot of abuse of that term going on in my opinion,

Cheers


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