So it is your hypothesis that answers are not to be found in books or publications? Then I ask you, what SHOULD I use as reference?





What other books should I read about science if NOT science books? This is oxymoronic.



By itself it is not. This is an important point for you to understand. By themselves, everyone of these facts is devoid of meaning and substance. There is CMB radiation... okay... do you know the history of CMB? Do you know it was discovered years before it was attributed to the Big Bang? It was only when this piece of information fit many others -- like hubble expansion, large scale galactic structure (such as "the great wall"), the values of fundamental parameters, measurements of the current matter to antimatter ratios, measures of matter (and by inference, dark matter) in our current universe -- ALL OF THESE are needed for the big bang. y themselves, each of these is useless... which is why when people like yourselves argue against a theory, they will pick on one aspect of the theory, one piece of data, and harp incessently on how it doesn't prove anything... when in fact they are right, ONE PIECE OF DATA PROVES NOTHING. Don't you see, why_do? If anyone of these facts, ANY ONE, fails to fit the theory, IT'S GONE. IT'S CANCER. WE ELIMINATE IT IMMEDIATELY. And anything that was based on it is modified appropriately. This is the canon of our faith; this is the core of our belief: nothing is absolute; everything is mutable, including our facts and theories... hell expecially those! LOL



Please let me restate what I said above: before you judge a theory or science, make sure you have at least EXPOSED yourself to a majority. Here you are lambasting the Big Bang and yet you are ignorant of some of the most compeling and recent evidence for it! You must be informed if you are going to make such gradiose assertions, you simply must.

Here, if you can trust such a lothesome publication, please reference this for what COBE was about and what is on the horizon for CMB exploration and it's consequences for physics. Granted, it's no LIGO (ah, LIGO... ), but it's still cool! The pictures alone just fire up the imagination!!!

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/9902027



What is the difference between "we understand it" and "we don't know what it is"?



You are correct: science doesn't know who or what created the universe.
In fact, science is, IMO, the closest to the truth by adamantly admitting, with all it's scientific rigor, shouting from the top of our ivory towers, that on the topic of "who": we don't know!
So what of it?
We don't need to know as I'll demostrate!

Does it make a difference to a falling apple whether it has fallen because of the exchange of gravitons between teh masses of the Earth and the apple... or because god is pushing it down?
Won't the times to fall be the same under both scenerios?
Won't the final outcome be the same under both scenerios?

Will the electron reactions that govern your computer, predictably, understandably, will they behaive somehow different if there is a "why" and not just a "how"?

You must get this duality clear in your head:

THERE IS NO "WHY" IN SCIENCE, ONLY IN EMOTIONS.
THERE IS NO "HOW" IN EMOTIONS, ONLY IN SCIENCE.

Do not confuse science with emotions ultimate aggragate, religion. They are both trying to answer the same questions but in different camps.
Since they will be, what difference does it matter if we do or do not know who or what is behind the scenes.



You have the wrong idea of what science is about. I would gladly share with you why the above is wrong, but only if you ask. This is such a fundamental misunderstanding of what science is, that if you truly believe this, nothing I can say can convince of how we scientist TRULY operate (and I'll tell you right now, it's not in the 100% range...)



First off, nothing is made of elements only atoms. Since you are invoking Aristotlean physics (circa 300BC), thought I'd bring you up to date.

Secondly, sorry chump but you can't have it both ways: either atoms and the big bang are both "facts" or they both aren't since they are both intangible objects which we have indirectly inferred to exist. Or in other words the concept of Atoms and the concept of the Big Bang both share teh same mother, the scientific method, and same stepdad, occam's razor.

Secondly, it has been proven in exactly the same way as the big bang. To whit, no one has ever touched an atom... ever. The only way we know they exist is by doing experiments which we interpret as atoms. And using that interpretation asa foundation has lead to greater adn greater success. It is at this point that we think of atoms as "fact".... when their success ratio is 100% for so long, that its hard to imagine how it could be otherwise. Newton's laws were such a theory... they were at 100% for a long time. Then Einstein noted, there was a 2% difference from his theory and Newtons, a 2% difference in the orbit of mercury I believe, and thus Einstein was proven. And thus now Newton was at 98% and falling but it was that two percent difference in what we thought was absolute (newton's laws) that lead us to a greater understanding of that law and our universe. And now, using this new 2% theory, Relativity, as a foundation has brought us a brave new world!!!!

Now how in the heck is that ANY different that collecting the electromagnetic radiation from the heavens and inferring a big bang, just like we inferred an atom? It is the same: in both cases, we haven't touched the object we refer too, in both cases we infer that object exists though observation, and in both cases if a better theory comes along, these are in the dump right away!

Yeah , well i guess you prove me both right and wrong , depending on angle. I myself am a fan of science , our advancement in technology and understanding is huge , but , I still dont believe in the big bang , the pieces of evidence pieced together are arent enough to come out and say thats how it happened. But I guess you could always argue the , how was god created point. There is definately a lot of mystery within our univere , and though I commend scientists on their effort , i definately dont think they've gotten it right to know. And the biggest flaw in believing everything just happened by itself is , us , intelligence , the big bang would make more sence if the universe was just stars rocks and energy. But it isnt like that , we have this beautifull planet , and us in it , beautifull tree , animals , we have life , and from a statistical point of view (1 planet out of 10 in our solar system has life) , the whole universe must be filled with life. How is it we are this complex beings , science just cant answre that , well as of now it cant, because it doesnt make sence. There is something special about us (and if you dont feel that way about yourself and humans there is definately something wrong with you) that no one can deny.

Then we have the soul , something some people dont believe exists, but if it didnt , we wouldnt be alive , we would be flesh robots, and we arent. So there is still too much unexplained for science to say they know how we came to be , we still cant be explained , and we're here , we can see each other every day.

Joozey wrote
"I'm suprised about our knowledge of civil engineering and logistics every time I read about megaprojects. The projects themselves are awesome for sure, but the way they are realized are at least just as awesome. "

Yes , 6 billion dollars towards one machine will tend to have that effect on people. I said BILLION btw , not million.

In any case , this physisists are a bunch bastards , and here is why , I saw a video of one the members of the project , it's on youtube or google video , it's a mature woman , she starts discribing the project , and the like , and then says something about what we'll get out of it , and the first thing she said , well , we will have a job for 30 years exploring this new particles we find. Thats right , thats exactly what she said , before the boson higgs , before other findings , she said that they would get 30 years work . LOL , so we see the true nature of the project , they are assuring funding for the next 30 years. WOW. What a bunch of deceiving bastards. But in any case , experiment looks fantastic as long as nothing happens to the planet or to any of us, still , caution should be exersiced , specially considering they've already had their first accident .

Oh yeah, scientists have no right trying to make a living. Getting 30 years of solid work should be restricted to politicians and lawyers, you know, good decent folk who don't deceive for a living. Truthfully, if the only reason teh LHC was built was to give a few hundred scientists a job, then how is that any different from every other great human endevour?

"Who hold these truths to be unalianble..." that by revolution we have ensured ourselves a LIFELONG job....

"I have a dream..." that I can just talk and talk and talk forever and that will be my job for life... ooopss, I guess someone thought his "LHC" like project wasn't worth funding...

"To go to the moon and back within our generation..." so that I can stay in office for as long as I can... yikes, didn't work for him either.

"640K ought to be enough for anybody' ahhh how smart... by purposefully keeping the memory low, he assured that there would be a life-long industry for him...


In any case, as you can see, when anyone tries to secure themselves a job, they ultimitely either become a super power, a leader in the technology field.... or get shot!! Wonder which one the LHC will be like??



In 2004, 7 Billion was spent on computer and video games.

7 billion towards video games.
6 billion towards science.
If one is a waste, why isn't the other?

And before you answer be careful; you don't want to give your impression that the real reason you want to support games is that, like those "deceiving bastards", you are just trying to secure a job for the next 30 years!

And every dollar is worth it three times. For science knowledge, engineering experience and for peace sake an international coöperation over the whole globe. Now tell me how religion can beat that.

@testdummy: whatever the reason is for your post removal, I do not plan to get into engineering, I stick with computer science. But I am following the big projects of the world very closely . Transatlantic bridge, space elevator, LHC... I just find it lovely and very interesting to read about them.

"For science knowledge, engineering experience and for peace sake an international coöperation over the whole globe"
You do realize that scientists have built EVERY weapon known to man right ?
You do know scientists created the atom bomb and the hydrogen bomb right ?
You do know a new world war could potentially kill EVERY single human in the planet right ?
You do know we have come VERY VERY close to world war 3 in the past 20 years on various occasions right ?
You do see there is enough nuclear bombs in the world to completely erradicate life on earth for thousands of years right ?
ALL OF THIS is the product of the scientists and their "right trying to make a living"
Is that the peace your talking about Joozey ?
You did hear about the Iraq war we just had right ?
Science hasnt brought any peace , it has progressively developed weapons each more powerfull than the last , science has in fact become a tool for destruction. And dont be surprised if this proton beams becomes the weapon of mass destruction of the future , dont forget the governments dont give money for nothing , there is always an interest.
So lets see , what has science done for us.
Well , we have tv , computer , radio , medicine has advance significantly , all this is good , but then , it has also developed every weapon used for war , including the nuclear weapons of mass destruction which all powerfull nations are scared smaller more unstable nations will develop , because they definately are a threat , and can indeed end the life of our planet , the only planet with life we know of.
"Now tell me how religion can beat that."
Well they've never built any atom bombs , and scientists have, and all to put some bread on the table , talk about selling your soul for a couple pennies.
Even Einstein regreted his pursuing of making the bomb , even though I agree the germans would have done it anyway , since they alreayd had the technology.

So as much good as science has done , it has done just as much bad, dont oversee it's darkside.

You do realize that scientists have built EVERY weapon known to man right ?
> The neanderthal man did too, and I heavily doubt they were scientists. Anway, you get my point.

You do know scientists created the atom bomb and the hydrogen bomb right ?
> Because the government forced them to. Noone who worked on those two things was neither is proud of what they did. Do you really think they were like "Yikes! Finally we did it! Lets kill some folks with this"? Seriousely?

You do know a new world war could potentially kill EVERY single human in the planet right ?
> Now what does this have to do with what we are talking about?

You do know we have come VERY VERY close to world war 3 in the past 20 years on various occasions right ?
> Again, what does this have to do with what we're talking about?

You do see there is enough nuclear bombs in the world to completely erradicate life on earth for thousands of years right ?
> And AGAIN, what does this have to do with what we're talking about?

ALL OF THIS is the product of the scientists and their "right trying to make a living"
> Ah now I get it. But again, scientists were only the puppets. Governments and military forced them to develop those. And if they didn't, they would have found someone else who would have. Maybe some naturally talented child - "a gift from god" - who would have finished the research. Then what? Should we kill all naturally talented people, just because they are "oh so evil"?

You did hear about the Iraq war we just had right ?
> The weels on the bus go round and round, round and round... And AGAIN, what does this have to do with what we're talking about?

"Now tell me how religion can beat that."
Well they've never built any atom bombs , and scientists have, and all to put some bread on the table , talk about selling your soul for a couple pennies.
> Yes, and they have killed millions(!) of people just because they didnt belive in "their" god. They had bloody crusades to kill the "unbelivers". They burnt people because they were stamped for being witches. MILLIONS of people killed for being stamped as witches, for no reasonable reason. MILLIONS of people killed by the crusades. BILLIONS of people died because the church killed and prosecuted scientists who could have developed a cure for common deseases. REALLY? REALLY? Do you think your beloved oh so holy church is so much better?


I really question if you can look yourself in the mirror. If I'd be you, I wouldn't. I would be too ashamed to.

You do know we have come VERY VERY close to world war 3 in the past 20 years on various occasions right ?

That had nothing to do with scientists actually... sure there were weapons, but it was mainly a direct result of the cold war that was (is?) going on... You can't blame "scientists" as a group for politicians that nearly screwed up big time or at least trying their best to spread fear into people into thinking the big bad Soviet Union is the enemy (wasn't true, the Soviet Union did not want to start a World War III ). After all, it was the US government that sort of wanted to start a war... It's a good thing they listened to some people who said that the collapse of the Soviet Union was only a 'matter of time' (that wasn't quite true either, but still... as insane as it is, there were a few times where the USA seriously thought about dropping the bomb.).

You do know a new world war could potentially kill EVERY single human in the planet right ?

Which... as insane as it sounds, is something 'you' guys usually see as something potentially good. You know... the end of days, judgment day, the apocalypse and so on.

"Now tell me how religion can beat that."

Actually that's not difficult at all. Give an example of 1 war that did NOT start because of religion. :P

Are you telling me CERN is the cause of all those wars? or might it perhaps have been religion?

Aside that, the german v3 rocket did start the space race. So not only can good be used for evil, but also vice versa.

@Why_Do_I_Die: (because everybody has to)
While my time at school I came across a very interesting philosophy, a science-philosophy.
Regarding to this philosophy there is no truth as such. No "real truth". We as humans are unable to find the ultimate truth. We may find it but we won't be able recognize it as such. Furthermore there only theories.
Thats all we have. Theories. You cannot say if they are "right" but if they can be proven or falsified.
If a theory proves very often it gets more and more likely to be a good theory, as it can be used to describe "reality" in an acceptable way.
However we, as humans, can never really say that it is right.
Of course if a theory can be falsified, it is indeed wrong and of no use.
But as long as a theory cannot be falsified it is indeed not wrong.

Maybe you should consider to look at science with this kind of perspective.
As long as something is not falsified and as long as it proves itself for a long time it gets more and more likely to be "true".

But as long as a theory cannot be falsified it is indeed not wrong.

Ohh, trust me, he's probably very familiar with that concept... because one of the fundamental reasons why religious people ( I assume Why_Do_I_Die is one) believe in a God, is because their God can't (ever) be falsified.