I don't think it is "fair" to judge an entire religion based upon 11th century actions or even actions from 50 years ago.

There is no need to do that.
Just look at modern day religious people.
Why go backwards in time?

Just compare the most radical people of christianity with the most radical people of islam? Can anybody see a difference?

Is Bin Laden different than the pope?
Is Al Zahiri different than Jerry Falwell?

Why? both men are only following their Holy books?

Because just look at this verse from the Koran below to see why.

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Koran 2:216
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

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That's pretty crazy huh? The idea that God loves violence.

Now contrast that with the bible below.

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1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

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Aha! Now that is the REAL creator God.
In fact, the world was destroyed in Noah's time, because of all the violence in it.

I´m not really a Muslim, but I´m interested in all religions. So why not spend a little time with the Qur´an ...

There´s not such a big difference between the attitude in the Qur´an and our western values.

1) Religious tolerance:

(2:256) There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

(2.062) Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Not only it is clearly rejected, that others are forced to Islam, Jews and Christians can even allowed to go to heaven.

2) Violence:

(2.190) Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
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But what about RanMans quote: "Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme"( Koran 8:39 )

Shortened like this it creates the impression, that Muslims are somehow hell-bent on war.
He doesn´t mention, that Mohammed did say this in a historical context, where the early Muslims were attacked and persecuted.
There are obviously some "Christian" websites, that put lines out of context in order to promote their desired clash of civilizations.

Here are three different translations of the same text:

008.039
YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

This passage is preceded by these words:

(8.038) Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning).

Later in the text the Qur´an sais:

(8.061) But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

There is a consistent and well defined attitude towards violence:
Fight back if people attack you and (depending on the translation) fight against oppression.

So the whole story is: if you are going to attack Muslims, they are allowed to fight back. If you stop the aggression, Muslims are usually happy to live in peace.

Some Christians seem to be a little bit hypocritical about this: while Jesus had this "turn the other cheek" message, they make this convenient difference between religion and politics. So depending on their mood and the situation they think they can turn to arms, start wars, whatever - but on sunday in churches they keep the noble ideal of a pacifist do-gooder religion.

Is this so much better, than a faith system, where rules for war are clearly defined?

Our secular western values (also the concept of "just war", which was later introduced to the christian faith) do respect the right of self defense and we also tend to respect the right to resist oppression.

What seems strange to some people is the fact that in Islamic societys there is not this "job sharing", this difference between noble (but unrealistic) ideals on the one hand and a military industrial complex (who is only bound by realpolitik) on the other hand.

@Ran_Man: again you're trying to say Christianity is better than the Islam. Giving examples like you did is pointless, there are equal if not more examples that can be give that show Christianity is violent. Infact, the old testament is full of it. So I don't understand why you want to uphold this 'artificial difference' of yours.

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So the whole story is: if you are going to attack Muslims, they are allowed to fight back. If you stop the aggression, Muslims are usually happy to live in peace.

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This is so true. Iraq before 9/11 (and thus after 9/11) wasn't even a threat at all. Even Condaliza Rice and Powell said so in February 2001. The war in Afghanistan and Iraq made the position of America worse, not better. There are more terrorists now than before both wars. All in all, there was no reason at all to attack. Apart from that the whole thing in Israel is very bad too. Palestinians simply want a life, but in return are treated like dirt, off course extremely desperate people will eventually snap and become a suicide bomber. People have to understand that those are reactions to their situations , you don't start an offense with suicide bombers, Ran_Man are you mad?

Cheers

You cannot truly love for real, if you do not know God.
You might think you love, but it's not possible without Him.

@ Phemox
I only said that, because he said something false.
He said:

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If you stop the aggression, Muslims are usually happy to live in peace.

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So, I had to show that historically it's not true.

Btw, no offense, but you guys are ignorant.
Do you really think they kill themselves for Bush or Israel?
Hehe? That's really not smart.

The reason why the muslim bombers exist are found in the Koran below:

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Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
Soon will He guide them and improve their condition,
And admit them to the Garden which He has announced for them.
Koran Sura 47:4-6

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Aggh, to be slain in the way of Allah means that you go to heaven!
Just read what they read and understand?

Anyways, I have a message for HELLCRYPT our muslim friend.
Hey bro, read the Koran below:

KORAN VERSE for my HELLCRYPT friend:

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"The believers who stay at home––apart from those that suffer a grave impediment––are not the equals of those who fight for the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home ..." (4:95,96)

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Aha! So, if you are peaceful, <and you are> , then if you want a higher rank with allah, then you have to act crazy and start bombing people. You have to FIGHT for God and all that nonsense. Make WAR and life hell down here for everybody. Staying at home and being peaceful is not allah's way at all.

<just joking>, but the Koran verses above are true, however.

Is it crazy? Funny? or what?

Hey Ran Man,

(I am not doing this because I am a devout believer, I am doing it because you are categorizing Muslims into one whole group; suicide bombers.)

Do you yourself do exactly what the bible says? Do you turn the other cheek when someone else slaps you? If so you sure are not showing it here.

You keep trying to pick a reason why all Muslims should start a war against everyone else until they are all Muslims as well. We have no reason to do that, it depends on the person and not what they believe in. I think you might have an obsession with killing and war, not very holy like.

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The reason why the Muslim bombers exist are found in the Koran below:

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That is not true at all, the reason why there are suicide bombers is because they have been brain washed. If the cults back in the 70's had been told to kill off anyone they saw that was not in their cult, I am sure they would have done it. Same with Pearl Harbor, their religion did not tell them to do suicide plane strikes, yet they did it anyway.

Some people like Osama just use the Quran as a way to enforce their power. Because some Muslims are really religious these people exploit it to their will.

Unfortunately your only support in this theory is what the Quran says. Not what is actually causing this catastrophes; the evil people behind it that are taking small children who are taught to love their land and God and manipulating them to sacrifice themselves.

This is not what the religion is based on. It's like any other religion; treat others as they would like to treat you.

You also mentioned who the Muslims have attacked... What about Alexander the Great and all the other rulers that ruled this world. They did the exact same thing, conquered and killed based on what they believe in. So it's the people behind all of this that are responsible and not the actual religion.

Erald

Ran_man you also totally ignored the point LarryLaffer made about the bible by the way...

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You cannot truly love for real, if you do not know God.
You might think you love, but it's not possible without Him.

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It's possible without him, infact it's not possible with God, since true love is a two-way thing and you can't have true love with something/someone if it doesn't love you back. I'd say go ahead and prove God loves us, then you'll make your point, untill then though sayonara....
You are actually the one thinking you love.

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So, I had to show that historically it's not true.

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You don't seem to understand why terrorism actually exists, but that's your problem. Terrorism is not the result of religion. Nations conquering others also has close to nothing to do with the Islam as a belief, and if it does according to you, think of all the Christian regimes conquering others. Both are just as 'evil' in that way,

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And about the holocaust, while everyone concentrates an the 6 million Jews that were killed people seem to forget the millions of Christians killed

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That's mainly the result of post-war politics and who got to power. For some reason 11 million military casualties on the USSR side often don't seem to "really count" either (I mean in history books).

I don't have a clue if it's true, but people say the US is supporting Israel this much because the people really in control of the US have always been Jews.

Cheers