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Re: God's Defense Strategy
[Re: William]
#105085
01/22/07 11:55
01/22/07 11:55
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
jcl
OP
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Frankfurt
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Quote:
That's basically what this thread boils down to, people worried about death, possibly sparked by Saddam Hussiens execution.
If a killer stands before court, I don't think its helping him to claim that death is just a part of life and people just should not be so worried about it.
Religious people tend to be a lot more worried and anxious about death than Atheists - otherwise they probably weren't so religious, won't you agree? Fear of death is a huge motivation, if not the main reason, for religion.
This does not mean that Atheists have no problems with pain, suffering, and death. But as they don't have anyone to blame, nor believe in any tales about sitting in heaven with a harp, normally their consolation is some philosophy, like Stoicism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism
And how can an Atheist imagine God standing before a court? Well, Atheists can imagine almost anything.  We just assumed for this thread that God really exists, really has killed all the people in the bible, and really can decide about earthquakes. Unless God proves us otherwise, of course. Maybe his lawyer still has an ace up his sleeve?
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Re: God's Defense Strategy
[Re: William]
#105086
01/22/07 12:51
01/22/07 12:51
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Quote:
I think God just judges each of individually when we die, if your young(child) obviously theres not much to judge.
Yeah, nothing to judge, so why should or how can that young child's death be just?
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So thats what it comes down to really, you never know when you'll die, and hopefully you'll have accepted God and have faith when you do.
Fear should never be a motive to have blind faith in anything.
Besides, why should one fear death if the 'dying part' can be a lot more painful?
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Unless God proves us otherwise, of course. Maybe his lawyer still has an ace up his sleeve?
Perhaps God will argue that it doesn't matter, because those people were granted access to heaven?
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Nothing is just in this world, there are bad things going on all the time, this is a cause of our sin.
Which is pure speculation. Besides, we are responsible for our own deeds and sins (the ones we actually commit, not the ones we get accused of by the bible), if in the end it turns out there's really someone to judge, then so be it. I do not sin, so why should I care?
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I'm moved by different motives than fear. However, this isn't to say that I do not have my own fears, as I do. But it does not guide my beliefs.
Or so they say. Doesn't the bible in general say 'do not fear because God exists/helps/Jesus saves et al.'? Why would it say such a thing towards people who are infact not afraid at all?
It wouldn't make sense asking for an indepth explanation since it probably would become too personal, however it's easy to say you believe something not because of fear but because of some other reason. I'm sure the bible has a couple of suitable explanations for this too, right? But no offense intended,
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Nothing is just in this world, there are bad things going on all the time, this is a cause of our sin.
Every bit of optimism helps you know. I'm not crying here screaming to the skies why the world is unfair. In a way the world isn't unfair at all, basically it's 'you get what you can take'. Some use any means necesarry because of their hunger for power. Well, good for them, bad for others unfortunately. Up to there it all makes perfect sense. But if a God actively ends lives, then thát's most unfair in certain cases. Off course there are some that possibly 'deserve to die' if such a punishment is even legit for any crime done. (imagine the prosecutors burn in hell for their judgment over others)
Cheers
Last edited by PHeMoX; 01/22/07 15:09.
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Re: God's Defense Strategy
[Re: PHeMoX]
#105087
01/22/07 14:12
01/22/07 14:12
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,320
Alberta, Canada
William
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Quote:
Yeah, nothing to judge, so why should or how can that young child's death be just?
Who said death is just? I was speaking of the God acting as a judge in the afterlife as being just when dealing with our past lives. I don't necessarily think death is cause of God but rather our own sin as described in the bible. Don't lead yourself into thinking that all things on earth need to be just. Nothing is just in this world, there are bad things going on all the time, this is a cause of our sin. I believe, in the end, every man will have to account for himself.
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Fear should never be a motive to have blind faith in anything.
I never mentioned fear as a motive for anything. I'm moved by different motives than fear. However, this isn't to say that I do not have my own fears, as I do. But it does not guide my beliefs.
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Religious people tend to be a lot more worried and anxious about death than Atheists - otherwise they probably weren't so religious, won't you agree? Fear of death is a huge motivation, if not the main reason, for religion.
I don't know the minds of everyone who believes in religion(or just in the bible for that matter), so I cannot make an assumption on this. From who I know personally, religion seems to give people a sense of belonging, churches and institutes are gathering places. This I have no problem with. However, I usually dislike most other aspects of religion, which exist to control people. I'm more of the open minded type. Perhaps fear is motivation for some, but from who I know personally, i'd say it's the purpose that God brings into your live when you accept him, life is no longer just a meaningless existence. Some say that accepting Christ and God is not only about that, but also accepting yourself. You come to terms with your own sin, and try to make steps for the better. If your believe this, it's no longer about fear, but rather love and purpose.
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Unless God proves us otherwise, of course. Maybe his lawyer still has an ace up his sleeve?
God cannot prove anything to an Atheist. Your speaking as though you believe God exists, just for the sake of this thread, but your opinion is solid either way. Therefore, God will never win this case in your current state of mind. By saying this i'm making an assumption your Atheist? Or perhaps, you don't know if your qualified to say whether God exists or not? If you indeed believe in God, then it's troublesome to see this fantasy trail you thought up, as you must be very confused.
I feel bad for Atheists, as life is not put into perspective. You will go through life working very hard with your talents and interests, and when you grow old and very knowledgeable, you will still not have no answer on what the point of your life was. Usually people hide from the truth behind multiple things, such as their work, their own reasoning, problems, and so on. And others just mellow out using whatever means necessary(drugs, ect.). But hopefully you will never be so hardened that God, or the notion of savior, will never be an option.
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Re: God's Defense Strategy
[Re: lostclimate]
#105088
01/22/07 19:25
01/22/07 19:25
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
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Quote:
That's exactly my point. I was talking about the illogic and unfairness of exactly this and you replied with a comment about the original sin. I don't understand why WE should receive the same punishment for something we didn't do! It was Adam, right? Well, why did God punish Eve too? Why did he punish us by making us mortal? It's not fair and it's based on illogic. That was my point.
I haven't studied the OS issue in depth, but your argument here is illogical. If you don't want to pay the price for sin, then just don't sin.... 
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I did not say it is right , did I ?
I said that the original sin is a milestone of the Christian teology both Catholic and Protestant
I dont know wether other religions have something similar
Obviusly you can accept or refuse it but nobody can declare himself a Christian if he does not beleive in it
There is a spectrum on OS, wherein the issue isn't so rigid as any disagreement makes one a heretic. Some people believe the OS only refers to the very first sin, others think that the very first sin extends to all of humanity. The problem is, what does it mean for that sin to extend to all of humanity? If it just meant that the knowledge of right and wrong entered the world, and thus made its way to all of humanity, then that can't really offend you even if you're a non-theist. In that case, if you don't think you should be punished for sin, then just don't sin.
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... and the question is :
Why did the Lord leave vassal alone ?
The better question is, "Why do you think this?" If you read the bible, God hasn't abandoned us.
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I suppose bcause the vassal offended the Lord
Not for eating an apple , of course th eapple must not be understood literally
Literal or figurative, it doesn't really affect the principle of the matter.
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" and your desire shall be toward your husband; and he shall rule over you."
Oh no! http://christian-thinktank.com/wgencurz.html
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Blame the parents when a child is behaving bad, they should have taught them better.
Parents, in society, need to take responsibility for their kids, but the fact is is that child is still responsible for his/herself. Well....it depends on the circumstances, but there is no reason that someone with a working brain should not be responsible for their decisions.
Also, you can't really say God doesn't take responsibility for our actions. At least not in light of the bible. But that depends on how you look at a responsibility. Certainly He doesn't fix all of our problems for us, but He will make sure we're all accountable.
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This led me to write a logical list of why god must exist, on the back of the list was a list of why god doesn't exist. It started as an assignment for one of my courses, but I took it way beyond that point.
Sorry to hear about the stuff going on. I've heard similar stories from others, caught between belief and unbelief.
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Science is sometimes though of as the anti god.
You kidding? I'm a pretty staunch fundy, but I like science. The only thing anti-god are anti-god philosophies. Of course, their nature should reveal why such a thing is so obvious. One can use science to support theism, one can use science to support atheism, but that doesn't change the fact that science is really neutral on the issue. What isn't neutral is philosophy.
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I am aware that many fundamentalists believe in moral relativity and consider everything that God does justified just because he's God.
Not me actually. I believe absolute morality comes from God, and that in THEORY He could violate it. Of course, to do so would contradict His nature, which He cannot do. That might sound like a complicated way of saying, "God can't do anything wrong." But it comes full circle in this: I would try and find out if anything God does is justified or not. If I read something in the bible that seems unjustified, I don't go, "It must be okay because God did it." If I don't know why its justified, I come back to it later when I know more (because we're dealing with a complex, ancient text and I don't want to be too quick to project modern circumstances onto it). Think about it this way, I've devoted a large part of my life to belief. If there's obvious proof that my belief is wrong, then I don't want to miss out on it; I don't want to be left in the dark, so to speak.
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This is why God is still standing before the court and his lawyer knows that claiming total relativity of fairness and morale would not be a good defense.
Well since your notion of a god is one who simply acts on a whim, with no sense of justice, then his best defense is simply to kill everyone in the courtroom. Its hard to convict someone when you're dead.
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Atheists (and also most Christians in Europe) believe that fairness and ethics are not relative and replaceable. Sure, it might depend on the society you live in whether for instance homosexuality is a crime or not. But every society - religious or not - has the same fundamental understanding of fairness. In every society, it is normally considered wrong to kill people for something they haven't done, or to kill innocent women and children. This "frame of reference" does not depend on the society you live in. It's in your genes. It developed during evolution. People who did not share that fundamental fairness concept could not well get along and live together with others. This was a survival disadvantage and eventually led to their extinction - except if they were gods.
This might seem ok (absolute morality based on a relative philosophy) from a modern pov. But from my, admittedly shallow, study of the ANE (ancient near east...), it seems this position almost always leads people down a path of destruction. Not necessarily complete destruction, but then according to your beliefs the genes of humanity led to the acceptance of child (or generally human) sacrifice, widespread and unchecked violence, etc. You can say, "But those people did it because of their gods", which is true, but when you take a god out of the picture then people just find another excuse.
What this comes down to is the debate between us using God's Word to decide what's right, and man deciding what's right. Some people like to claim relativity, but they aren't actual relative. Because the second you mention that abortion is wrong, then they don't want to hear any of it. The fact of the matter is, no one is really open to all viewpoints and opinions. No one is an absolute relativist (I know...that's contradictory, but that's the point). Eventually, everyone has to rest on the knowledge that there is an absolute rule to everything, otherwise no one would believe anything.
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t is one of the ugly sides of fundamentalism - and one of the reasons why fundamentalism, in my opinion, is not a harmless folly - that it tends to distort the moral frame of reference that is natural and common to all humans.
I wish I could disagree with you, but so many Christians (and others including fundy atheists) are so woefully uneducated, and so [seemingly] allergic to critical thinking that there seems to be little hope sometimes.
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Don't know about you, but a.) I've never heard God explain this 'gift' to anyone and b.) he didn't ask me if I wanted it in the first place. So we didn't really have a choice when it comes to receiving free will.
Yes you do. (Please don't take this literally) Step out in front of a truck on the freeway. You'll lose your freewill pretty fast, and it'll be by your choosing. I don't know if I should put a smiley or frownie face after that. :| I'll just combine the two I guess.
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Religious people tend to be a lot more worried and anxious about death than Atheists - otherwise they probably weren't so religious, won't you agree? Fear of death is a huge motivation, if not the main reason, for religion.
According to the theory of evolution. Personally I pondered death for a short time, and I realized something. It really isn't that big of a deal. I don't want to experience the dying process, but being dead (especially if there is no afterlife) means absolutely zip. Every thing you've experienced, all the happiness, joy, sorrow, etc will simply disappear. What's to be worried about? You won't even know you were alive at any time.
Until next time...
Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 01/22/07 19:26.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: God's Defense Strategy
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#105089
01/23/07 07:04
01/23/07 07:04
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,305
New York
PrenceOfDarkness
Serious User
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Serious User
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New York
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This might be my last post on the matter. After months and months of painful inner debate between god and no god, to believe or not to believe, I've concluded what in my opinion is healthiest for everyone (LOL, please note the part where I said my opinion). I believe we should all just agree that we just don't know, nor do we have proof of either. Like everyone already knows, there is really no absolute evidence, or else we wouldn't be having god related discussions. For every argument geared towards no god, you can probably flip it as a reason for why there must be. As a final note, being caught between believing or not, I would like to say I just can't stand atheists. LOL, I know that not believing 100% might make me one also, but the reason for this is because of my experience with atheists. See before I met a paticular atheist that doesn't need to be named I believed in god and heaven, and all that wonderful candy land stuff. However, after a long conversation with this person I ended up feeling empty inside. I have secretly hated this person for doing that to me. I mean really, let's say you guys are all right CONGRADULATIONS, now we all get to die and our life really has no wonderful meaning. Thanks for $#itting on us all some added stress, fear, and worry. When I meet people that deeply believe in god they seem happy about it, it's comforting not to have to worry about death. Then I think about people who either dont believe in god or aren't sure, and well, how many of you are actually really really hoping there is nothing after life. Really.. I'm not saying aethiest are bad people, because unfortunality my girlfriend and her brother who I'm really close friends with are. I just can't stand it when they go and try to take away what little comfort they have in death. I guess it's annoying when a religious person tries to "convert" you as well, but hey what do I know. But hey I guess you could be really smart and just worship god a bit, hope he's a pretty cool and lenant person, and if he does exists he lets you in to heaven. I mean really if he doesn't exists it's not like you lost all that much anyway, other then mabe saving yourself a few extra hours of worry lol. I hope I haven't offended anyone, I honestly believe everyone who has written even a single post on this topic is intelligent and I thank you all for what you have written, I read every single post. I would write alot more but I'm done with this argument, took to much out of me last time. Beside the conclusion is going to be exactly the same WE JUST DON'T KNOW NOTE: Sorry if I keep straying away from the main focus, I probably should have started another Thread. Also excuse the crappy spelling.
"There is no problem that can't be solved with time and determination." -me
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Re: God's Defense Strategy
[Re: lostclimate]
#105091
01/23/07 08:00
01/23/07 08:00
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,305
New York
PrenceOfDarkness
Serious User
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Serious User
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,305
New York
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Ya, that's what i was thinking lostclimate. I mean really why are people trying so hard to disprove god? What will the prize be if there is no god really? Besides I don't like to steal and kill people, I don't see why following parts of the bible would be a bad thing. Further more I don't see a problem with praying other then there is scientific evidence to support praying is actually good for you, it helps release stress (i'm sorry i don't have a link to where this information can be found, but I believe the discovery channel or national geographics is where I got the information). So unless your walking into buildings with bombs strapped to your body I really don't see why believing in god would hurt. What I'd really would like for someone to answer would be how NOT believing in god is actually healthier .
"There is no problem that can't be solved with time and determination." -me
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Re: God's Defense Strategy
[Re: PrenceOfDarkness]
#105092
01/23/07 14:21
01/23/07 14:21
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,320
Alberta, Canada
William
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Quote:
As a final note, being caught between believing or not, I would like to say I just can't stand atheists. LOL, I know that not believing 100% might make me one also, but the reason for this is because of my experience with atheists. See before I met a paticular atheist that doesn't need to be named I believed in god and heaven, and all that wonderful candy land stuff. However, after a long conversation with this person I ended up feeling empty inside. I have secretly hated this person for doing that to me. I mean really, let's say you guys are all right CONGRADULATIONS, now we all get to die and our life really has no wonderful meaning. Thanks for $#itting on us all some added stress, fear, and worry. When I meet people that deeply believe in god they seem happy about it, it's comforting not to have to worry about death. Then I think about people who either dont believe in god or aren't sure, and well, how many of you are actually really really hoping there is nothing after life. Really..
The interesting this about this is that most Atheists feel this way when presented with the church, God, and a bible. They feel disconnected with their beliefs, and this is why they try so hard to disprove others beliefs.
In order to follow Christianity, you must forfeit certain liberties you would have taken otherwise. These liberties usually revolve around sin, dealing with insecurities and so forth. Unfortunately most people would rather call it a day, become an Atheist, and indulge in many things that actually hurt them. This is not to say that by becoming a Christian you instantly change your ways, it's always a struggle either way, but you end up having a much more open mind in the end(and a different outlook on life).
I think for the Christians reading these forums, a struggle is presented throughout. And for the Atheists, they wont feel satisfied until all Christians joined them. If you look at an incredibly insecure person, you will notice these insecurities increase when no one is watching their antics, listening to them, or joining in under them. Of course, they usually present themselves in a very engaging way, when they are confronted, they either run around the topic, change it, or become a hothead. But that's the beauty of the internet, you never discuss things at an emotional/personal level, and such a large part of religion involves that. But when their not confronted, they will quickly create a topic such as this, and seek you out. My advice is don't become discouraged by the debates on this forum, there intellectual in some degrees, but also full of much false information and runaround.
btw- The reason i'm mainly focusing on Christianity vs. Atheism is due to in roughly 80-90% of the posts of this forum discuss Christianity, usually coming from Atheists. Awkward enough, you rarely hear much discussing Islam, Buddhism, ect. Even those these religions are arguably as big as Christianity. Which makes me wonder, is it just that much easier to bash Christianity?
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Re: God's Defense Strategy
[Re: PrenceOfDarkness]
#105093
01/23/07 15:06
01/23/07 15:06
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
jcl
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Chief Engineer
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Quote:
See before I met a paticular atheist that doesn't need to be named I believed in god and heaven, and all that wonderful candy land stuff. However, after a long conversation with this person I ended up feeling empty inside.
This is exactly why no one should attempt to forcefully "convert" other people to Atheism.
Atheism is not for anyone. If you have fear of death and found consolation in a belief in an afterlife, one should not lightheartedly take that away from you. You won't tell a small child either that it will grow old and die.
Atheism requires to some extent free thinking, self-control, fortitude, and detachment from fear. This must be personally achieved, you can not just "convert" to Atheism, just as you can not convert to Quantum Theory. Atheist books should maybe carry a sticker "Read at your own risk".
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The reason i'm mainly focusing on Christianity vs. Atheism is due to in roughly 80-90% of the posts of this forum discuss Christianity, usually coming from Atheists.
This discussion was not about Christianity, but about Fundamentalism. While I would certainly not recommend that everyone converts from Christianity to Atheism, everyone has my blessing to convert from Fundamentalism to Christianity.
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Re: God's Defense Strategy
[Re: William]
#105094
01/23/07 15:30
01/23/07 15:30
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
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On topic: The lawyer that defends God, is he a Christian or atheist? OT: Quote:
What I'd really would like for someone to answer would be how NOT believing in god is actually healthier.
I think jcl is right, perhaps atheism isn't suited for everyone indeed. Some people need things they can attach to so they can live there life as a stronger person. e.a. people that tend to let fear influence a lot. Off course this is all simply a matter of mind, but it's probably also why people on either side believe in their things so hard.
Wanting to disprove God or no God is part of this, no doubt.
Infact, the temptation of simply believing in God because you will have peace of mind either way wether true or false is difficult to resist. Still, in my opinion there's a difference between excepting evidence and adjusting your view and simply sticking to your own ideas no matter what.
In a way I feel that's the difference between both, but that's a personal thing, since religious people tend to believe in their 'evidence'. Let's say we find enough (mostly physical) evidence to discredit christianity as a whole, what would the most likely reaction of christians be? My guess is, they will either try hard to ignore or disprove the authencity of that evidence or will simply say it's a trick of God, a test.
Having said that, I think it should be clear to all that doubt that you really have a choice when it comes to being religious or not, because infact 'we do not know'. (It's a whole different story when it comes to the historical value of the bible though  there's already enough evidence to discredit a literal interpretation imho).
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Awkward enough, you rarely hear much discussing Islam, Buddhism, ect. Even those these religions are arguably as big as Christianity. Which makes me wonder, is it just that much easier to bash Christianity?
Although Islam claims it too, Christianity is one of the view religions actually claiming all sorts of things to have literally happened. But since Islam mostly is derived from or has copied parts of Christianity, people will try to discredit Christianity first. (Many Christians try to discredit the Islam though, just look at the many many Christian propaganda site about the 'stupid' Islam).
Buddhism and Hinduïsm do claim things but when it comes to myths and stories they tolerate as much as any view on them. They will never claim themselves that certain stories are untrue, but they won't care if you say that it's unlikely or probably false. It's mostly because of the general difference of approach towards their own religion, it's very unlike western religion. Normally you won't see Hindus or Buddhists trying to convert people (there are some nowadays, but that's a really modern thing), the Islam and Christianity will try though, hence the whole discussions. Don't forget that Christianity since it's the biggest religion at the moment also makes for an interesting target.
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Therefore, if they (they not being all atheists, just the activists) can convince people that God doesn't exist, then man becomes the ultimate authority and social progress can be made.
And what is wrong with social progress? Isn't the ultimate freedom and what many call the 'american' dream the result of social progress? Why not let everyone enjoy that freedom equally? I think God would agree since homosexuals for example can be christians too,
Cheers
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