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 Um.. everyone is wrong.. you can already do this in A6..
i have shaders that react to lights and so on..just dont use lights..
use objects that you program to act as lights.. its all in the coding..
so basically we are already at Doom3 level of quality..

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matt while this may be correct
your having to use shader to bandaid a problem with the engine
the issue gordon speak of is correct you dont need shader to have the
features he speak of
conitec should hardcode features like proper liting and model shading coded in the engine
instead relyin on talented ppl like yourself to patch it for them

having proper shading on models and even casting static shadow maps
from models on bsp geometry is old tech and doent need to be shader drivin to work
i know im using it in torque + light pack (2000 tech)
check my thread in morbius with a screeny

this way it run on alot more systems
and shader could be used for the fancy stuffs like
bump maps and glow or whatever

my point you shouldnt have to bandaid there engine with shader
to make up for such basic technolgy

i applaud you for doing it though

Unless I'm mistaken..all the fancy Unreal 3 stuff is shaders and only shaders. It's a shaders-centric engine(ala Nebula2). Are there any other ways to achieve those fancy effects(including that style of lighting and shadows) without shaders? If not, then I don't see the problem.

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Are there any other ways to achieve those fancy effects(including that style of lighting and shadows) without shaders?

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1st off epic is working with future tech and cards we dont even
have avalble to us now

so they runnin alot more polys then we can
but if you take the cathredral shot 2nd pic
i think alot of that could be done in unreal 2(only some though)

lets disect
example
the building to the left that has the tree limbs casting
nice shadows on it
if that building was built with bsp unreal 2
and light placed right the shadow from the tree static
mesh would cast the shadow from the limbs the same way on that building
this kinda tech has been shown before around here

but notice tree is also getting shading as well
this wouldnt be possble with unreal 2 since the static mesh model
dont recieve shadow
i could keep going further but im sure you get it(only part possible)

point i make is even the basic shadin in these shots
are so far away for 3dgs

very talented like matt might be able to code it in
but what good is that really for a small indie game
when an indie game can use 2.0 or 3.0 shader model it will be years an years
down the road
latest steam report was geforce4 mx most popular card(it doesnt support shader!!)

if you expect to make a game with GS that needs 2.0 or 3.0 shader model
to look halfway current most likely that where all time will be spent(playing with shaders)

good lighting and shadow maps can make great lookin game

but models need to work with this
not just WED geometry

John made the lighting pack for torque working on 1999-2000
based engine
and he did it fast

i guess my complaint is and alway will be model lightin and shading
with this engine
it funny how ppl just dont seem to get this i just dont understand it
it is very very plain to see when plainin with it

plop a model in the lvel and watch it turn fully dark black
because there is a shadow on the floor under it
materials and dynamic lights could fix it
but oops only 8 dynamic light an so on an so
i hope i made my point im not trying to bash just trying to get things
lookin better without havin to shader everything

sorry for the long wind respond

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they just use two geforce 6800 in a SLI configuration.

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thx for pointin that out, is the anyone and i scream it
anyone!!!!
using such a configuration

answer is no
absolutly no
mabey a few freak freak gamers

we wont be makin games for these types anyhow

you cant expect to see this type of setup or config in modern pcs(dells gateways and so on for years down the road)

conitec shoud just take some time to work on there render engine instead
of pourin on feature that relly dont do much for the product except helpin them sell to new nieve game starters

mirrors are the best example of this the mirror design of this engine
is so funny
with so many restriction
anyone used mirrors in other engine know what i speak of
even old stuff like genesis(1999 i thibk) had beeter mirrow setup
and conitec has the nerve to charge more for it

Unreal 3 engine screenies are amazing , and although maybe someday gamestudio can achieve such results at the time being is not possible. Though you can make a pretty decent game with gamestudio , and if you see a lot of the games out in the market not all of them look as good as the unreal games , and many look like they could have been done with the gamestudio engine. I do wish however it would render better than it does , but as it is , it's pretty solid as it stands.

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plop a model in the lvel and watch it turn fully dark black
because there is a shadow on the floor under it
materials and dynamic lights could fix it
but oops only 8 dynamic light an so on an so
i hope i made my point im not trying to bash just trying to get things
lookin better without havin to shader everything

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Well, that's the way it's been done for years. The model's shading is determined by the floor brightness. Modern games still do it, though the newer high tech engines are going more in the direction of full on dynamic light and shadow. Guess what...they all use shaders.

However, you can achieve, IMHO, wonderful dynamic highlights and shadows on a model in 3DGS and without shaders. My own game is shadow and light heavy. Using clever placement of lights and sometimes the sun, I can achieve fantasic shading on my models. I also use many more than 8 dynamic lights in a level and turn them on and off based on an action I wrote. Whenever the new light management system gets put in place and we have more stencil shadows options, everything will start to fall into place.

For me personally, I'm satisified with the speed of the engine. Sure, it can always be faster, but it suits my purposes, for now. With that said, I'm not going to complain if Conitec does temporarily set aside some new features in favor of beefing up the speed/rendering quality. Also, I completely disagree with those who say A6 is only at 2000 levels and inbetween Unreal and Unreal 2. This is simply a lot of BS. I know it is beyond that based on my own project which holds up with any number of games I've played recently.

The amount of rampant ignorance in this thread is funny. Unreal3 is not so amazing.. its just the logical extension of dx9 hardware. Most effects in those shots are generateed by shaders. Using shaders is not 'band aiding'.. its how these things are done. Essentially all the engine needs to do anymore is simply give you matrix information and vectors..everything else can be done via shaders. Bascially conitec just needs to provide more vectors and more flexibility. Yes there are some things that need to be implemented in the engine such as shadow mapping and z-fail shadow volumes. Once this is done .. and the new lighting system which will provide needed vector data, you can easily create at least Doom3 quality worlds. after that most effects are simply extensions of the existing techniques.. a lot of what makes certain games look impressive is the artwork and tweaking involved, not the core technology.

"a lot of what makes certain games look impressive is the artwork and tweaking involved, not the core technology"

Couldnt have said it better myself , the Doom 3 engine is free to make you own maps and mods if you own a copy , you could literally make your own game with it , but i'm sure that most of the people using gamestudio would make low quality games with it as well , considering you just use the engine and none of the premade artwork of any kind.

since in the original techdemo video of unreal3 they say the models are 10k+ for characters and 2-3 million for the level design.
(thats real not simulated via normal maps)
(I have no ideal what the normal simulation is) 250,000+ per character probably.

Compared to doom3's 2500-3000 poly models(characters), ofcourse it looks good.
And some great artists back it up.

The greatest reason to use "shaders" IMO is to unload work from cpu to gpu.
its not just for fancy effects..heh

"a lot of what makes certain games look impressive is the artwork and tweaking involved, not the core technology"

I Agree, what good is "super go faster stipes+++X enngine" without quality media to render?

But to Answer Mikes question ,
Yes, eventualy...Im sure it will be.

Zmatrix