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Re: new grafic-technique [Re: Hummel] #321075
04/26/10 22:19
04/26/10 22:19
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,488
ratchet Offline
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ratchet  Offline
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They should post some demos to really show how it could run on our PC !!!!!!!!
Not only words !

Some points :
-how are applied textures precisely ?
-can you have shaders on top of this technology ? lot more power needed tnhan simpel polygons
-how can work 3D Collision system ?????
- Can you have animated models : i doubt a lot !!!!!!!!!
- Can you have Lightmaps ?
AND
- What tools modelers can produce models for such scenes ?
what tool to use to build a scenes, texture it, have lightmaps ???????

The day they will make a real demo game for all people with characters , lightmaps, shaders, particles, collisions :
OK that day we'll tale a look more serious at it laugh

I think John Carmak have also said , he believes that some sort of voxel system could be the next technology !
But again what tools will support it , how will work texturing ? etc ... etc ...

Let's wait for a demo if it happens one day !

Re: new grafic-technique [Re: ratchet] #321079
04/26/10 22:41
04/26/10 22:41
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,488
ratchet Offline
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ratchet  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,488
On this Youtube link :
youtube unlimited detail
A user comment is :

hm Unlimited Detail, even if they're only rendering the points that are needed, they still need to store all the detail somewhere.
unlimited detail needs unlimited memory
And i don't think they invented unlimited file compression.
A Polygon model with ca 1 mio. triangles needs 105 MB of disk space (saved as an .obj-file, I'm a 3D-Artist myself)
I don't know how this thing works, but i'm sure if it was as good as they say, they would've found a taker


I think it has undertand the main problems , and yes if it was a great technique like said , it would have been taken by a company already !
So when they say it can run on any PC even a SmartPhone (when you know the little memory on it sometimes : hummm hummm... laugh !

If i would have to bet on a technique for next year , i would
bet on Direct X 11 Tesselation system, when associated with shaders you have alos lot of polygons in your scene also !
(and LOD tesselation also , maximum only when camera is near) !

Hardware tesselation

It is already used on Alien Vs Predator on PC also !
No years to wait for it, can be used in last 3D Cards !

Last edited by ratchet; 04/26/10 22:50.
Re: new grafic-technique [Re: ratchet] #321082
04/26/10 23:12
04/26/10 23:12
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 55
Michigan
S
splashmaker Offline
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splashmaker  Offline
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S

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 55
Michigan
Although I am also skeptical about this technology (first time I saw it I thought it was a prank), we should always keep our minds open to new ideas.

-how are applied textures precisely ?
Not sure, but they could be baked into the point data. Procedural textures may also become a possibility.

-can you have shaders on top of this technology ? lot more power needed tnhan simpel polygons
There is no reason why you could not have custom shading effects, this runs in software so anything you can program you can combine with this. The question is the performance, this is where they need to support direct compute.

-how can work 3D Collision system ?????
I think you could do it anyway you want just like with polygon engines. A lot of collision systems use bounding boxes for moving objects. As far as colliding with the world you could make a polygon representation of it if they find no other way.

- Can you have animated models : i doubt a lot !!!!!!!!!
Yes they did make an animation.
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=105528666147262&topic=28

- Can you have Lightmaps ?
According to Bruce Dell:
"SHADOWS:
Unlimited Detail will have both real-time shadows and pre-calculated
lighting as well as a variety of advanced lighting options"

AND
- What tools modelers can produce models for such scenes ?
what tool to use to build a scenes, texture it, have lightmaps ???????
Bruce Dell again:
"IMPORT OF DATA:
Data can be imported from a variety of sources. We expect to directly
support some popular scanning and modelling applications and file
formats for both point cloud and polygon style data. The SDK will
provide a simple way to import data from any source."

And memory:
"MEMORY STORAGE
The Unlimited Detail rendering technology does not require significant
system memory to run. The geometry may be compressed, instanced and
streamed to allow the best mix of runtime and disk based storage as
well as support unique geometry."

This is all what they said. I'm not sure if the technology will be as perfect as they say it is, but it seems like they are finding ways of solving the problems they encountered.

Re: new grafic-technique [Re: splashmaker] #321134
04/27/10 10:37
04/27/10 10:37
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,225
Germany / Essen
Uhrwerk Offline
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Uhrwerk  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,225
Germany / Essen
Originally Posted By: splashmaker

And memory:
"MEMORY STORAGE
The Unlimited Detail rendering technology does not require significant system memory to run. The geometry may be compressed, instanced and streamed to allow the best mix of runtime and disk based storage as well as support unique geometry."

Total bullshit. You can't swap geometry from a hdd ingame - not in this mass. That would give a significant delay. And if you have unlimited detail any scene - regardless how simple it is - needs unlimited memory. I'm with the Apostle Thomas here... ^^

b.t.w.: even the way they speak about their technology makes me suspicious. No technical terms, no tech-talk. Thats not normal when you have just created THE next generation technology. Compare it to an interview with John Carmack.


Always learn from history, to be sure you make the same mistakes again...
Re: new grafic-technique [Re: maslone1] #321176
04/27/10 13:12
04/27/10 13:12
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,710
MMike Offline
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MMike  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,710
Originally Posted By: maslone1
but no playable demo.... frown
so it's maibe a fake.... frown


I dont like that video colors, or scenes, and the picture in the intro with the eye.. i dont know why,but i hate that eye...

Re: new grafic-technique [Re: MMike] #321192
04/27/10 14:51
04/27/10 14:51
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,488
ratchet Offline
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ratchet  Offline
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Posts: 2,488
I also prefer lot lot more the demo from tesselation done in UniEngine !
And for memory, i also doubt a lot : unlimited details means nothing, so i could have millions of points for a character : that millions of points coordinates will need to be saved.
Well, i can't believe it should be so ligfhtweight to run on any PC.

Like i said , i will believe the day they will post a public game demo.

Re: new grafic-technique [Re: ratchet] #321213
04/27/10 16:26
04/27/10 16:26
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,218
Germany
Rackscha Offline
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Rackscha  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,218
Germany
I Think Unlimited Detail is a POSSIBILLITY and not something that will be used.
Developes might uses this technique(if it works) to stream Polygon data more effectively instead of using poping LODs.

Same/Equal amount of polygons(as today), but LOD streaming more Icandy^^


Lets see what we get in the future


MFG
Rackscha


MY Website with news of my projects:
(for example my current
Muliplayer Bomberman,
GenesisPrecompiler for LiteC
and TileMaster, an easy to use Tile editor)
Sparetime-Development

Re: new grafic-technique [Re: Rackscha] #321216
04/27/10 16:34
04/27/10 16:34
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,252
Hummel Offline
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Hummel  Offline
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Posts: 2,252
what does UD have to do with streaming techniques? -.o

Re: new grafic-technique [Re: Hummel] #321219
04/27/10 16:57
04/27/10 16:57
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,210
İstanbul, Turkey
Quad Offline
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Quad  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,210
İstanbul, Turkey
since you cannot put unlimited x,y,z data in memory, you have to stream from hdd wink


3333333333
Re: new grafic-technique [Re: Quad] #321220
04/27/10 17:07
04/27/10 17:07
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 7,441
ventilator Offline
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ventilator  Offline
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 7,441
since when are hdds unlimited? tongue

it could be kind of unlimited if it were 100% procedural/fractal based but i don't think you would have much freedom doing the artwork then.

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