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Re: the pope and the limbo
[Re: ventilator]
#126321
04/25/07 17:29
04/25/07 17:29
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,682
Coppell, Texas
Ran Man
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,682
Coppell, Texas
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Quote:
i don't really understand what "born again" means. maybe because it's hard to translate to german.
Yes, this " born again " thing is in the bible.
Quote:
John 3:5-8
5 Jesus replied, "The truth is, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives new life from heaven. 7 So don't be surprised at my statement that you must be born again. 8 Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit."
So, the "baptism" of water is not the key, according to Jesus.
The key is the baptism of the Spirit of God.
I think it's hard to say when or if that happens in a child or baby, since our eyes are blinded from the spiritual at the present time. 
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Re: the pope and the limbo
[Re: Ran Man]
#126322
04/26/07 06:54
04/26/07 06:54
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,131
Matt_Aufderheide
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Quote:
i don't really understand what "born again" mean
Welcome the club of normal poeple.
In fact its basically tacky gibberish invented by televangelists who want your money.
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Re: the pope and the limbo
[Re: Matt_Aufderheide]
#126323
04/26/07 10:16
04/26/07 10:16
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 183
Kinji_2007
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Posts: 183
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Quote:
In fact its basically tacky gibberish invented by televangelists who want your money.
Televangelists wrote the Bible? lol Its not wonder some of you guys are atheists. You have no clue concerning things on a spiritual level. At the very least, study and figure out exactly what it is that you do NOT believe in. :-)
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Re: the pope and the limbo
[Re: ventilator]
#126324
04/26/07 13:13
04/26/07 13:13
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
NITRO777
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analysis paralysis
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Quote:
i don't really understand what "born again" means. maybe because it's hard to translate to german.
ventilator it is uncanny how closely your questions resemble those of certain teachers in the Bible(see John 3 for Nicodemus curiosity on the meaning of born again)
Let me give you my own interpretation of "born again".(although I believe it is very supported by scripture)
Born again is a type of ethnic cleansing, a type of rassenhygiene without all of the violence. The basic idea is that mankind is flawed, ALL of mankind (not just Jews, handicapped or any other group).
The idea of Christianity is to kill this flawed group, but not physically kill them, to spiritually kill them. This is symbolized in baptism: the person is held under water and raised up out of the water as a new creature.
So inwardly this old creature is crucified along with Christ, and inwardly a new creature is ressurected with Him.
That is why Christians see themselves as distinct from the rest of the world, because we are literally a new species, we have been re-born inwardly.
Now you are most likely more confused than when you started.
Good luck. 
Quote:
Welcome the club of normal poeple.
Normal people scare me.
Last edited by NITRO777; 04/26/07 13:14.
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Re: the pope and the limbo
[Re: NITRO777]
#126325
04/26/07 13:39
04/26/07 13:39
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
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Quote:
The idea of Christianity is to kill this flawed group, but not physically kill them, to spiritually kill them. This is symbolized in baptism: the person is held under water and raised up out of the water as a new creature.
So inwardly this old creature is crucified along with Christ, and inwardly a new creature is ressurected with Him.
That is why Christians see themselves as distinct from the rest of the world, because we are literally a new species, we have been re-born inwardly.
 I for one am definitely more confused now.
Quote:
The basic idea is that mankind is flawed, ALL of mankind
This is probably true  , there's no such thing as perfect people, but I think you mean spiritually flawed here, right?
Cheers
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Re: the pope and the limbo
[Re: PHeMoX]
#126326
04/26/07 14:07
04/26/07 14:07
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
NITRO777
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Quote:
I for one am definitely more confused now.
heh heh. Well the whole doctrine of death, burial, and ressurection with Christ is a very complex thing, I was hoping to create kind of an overview, but Im sure it created more questions than it did answers.Lol. The word "kill" was probably the wrong word to use, and there were other ways to make the point.
Quote:
but I think you mean spiritually flawed here, right?
Right, but the physical is dependent on the spiritual so they are still very connected according to Christian belief. The rebirth of the spirit begins immediately after salvation, the rebirth/recreation of the body occurs after physical death.
So no I dont believe that Christians should go around killing the rest of the world because they are flawed and we are not.
However I definitely do believe that the Christian is superior to world in that we are accepted by God, and the world is rejected. But this "superiority" is a moral choice which anyone can make, so it is not an issue of inequality.
Hitler had the right idea in a sense because he wanted to create a perfect race, the Aryans, however he failed to realize that the Aryans were flawed also, which was abundantly proved by his own military mistakes and defeats.
Now because of Christianity, a perfect race has been "created from within" without any need of violence. That is true perfection.
This is what Jesus meant when He preached that "the kingdom of God is at hand" He was talking about a kingdom which would not be a physical kingdom (like Hitler or Cyrus) but an invisible Kingdom.
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Re: the pope and the limbo
[Re: NITRO777]
#126327
04/26/07 14:34
04/26/07 14:34
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
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Quote:
However I definitely do believe that the Christian is superior to world in that we are accepted by God, and the world is rejected. But this "superiority" is a moral choice which anyone can make, so it is not an issue of inequality.
So we are spiritually flawed based solely on our choices? I don't think believing in God is a moral choice actually, more so an emotional one. But the idea is uuuhmm somewhat contradicting, or at least that's what comes closest to describe it.
Basically you believe we are unequal unless we believe to be something which would make us equal. I'm pretty sure there's no such thing a spiritual perfection and many Christians sin or do bad things actually. Basically you can find the same kind of society when it comes to good and bad people amongst religious people, that's a fact. So, my point and opinion is more centered around the belief that it's ultimately about our actions, not about our deepest beliefs or spiritual side.
Don't you believe your God ultimately judges upon whether or not someone has lived a good life?
Cheers
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Re: the pope and the limbo
[Re: PHeMoX]
#126328
04/26/07 15:13
04/26/07 15:13
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
NITRO777
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Expert
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,010
analysis paralysis
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Quote:
Don't you believe your God ultimately judges upon whether or not someone has lived a good life?
No absolutely not, that is not Christianity. Every_other_religion believes that but not Christianity. In Christianity God ultimately judges upon whether or not Jesus had lived a good life not whether or not we had lived a good life.
Thats why Christians are so Jesus_centric. Jesus blood is the substitution for our bad moral choices. Jesus was punished so that we are no longer accountable to God. Now, in the eyes of God, we are a new creation.
There are no actions which this born again phenomena require. Jesus death and blood are a free gift. The only action you must take is the action to accept this free gift.
It is analogous to someone handing out a million dollars as a free gift. There are no set of laws and regulations you must fulfill in order to qualify for the million dollars, it is already yours, there is nothing you have to do to work for it.
However, there is a small thing you need to do, number one you have to believe that the guy is indeed holding a million dollars, for if you dont believe that he is holding the money, you will never take the money.
The other simple thing you must do is take the money. It doesnt no good at all if you dont reach out and take the money.
However, the man offers the money as a free gift. There are no actions which the man requires you to do before you can have it. Most religions require you to do all sorts of things before you qualify for the million. Christianity offers the million to all regardless of their moral actions.
This is the perfect love.
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Re: the pope and the limbo
[Re: NITRO777]
#126329
04/26/07 16:02
04/26/07 16:02
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
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Okey, I see. As far as the analogy goes, it's definitely not the same. I'm very sure I would give the person willing to hand over 1 million the benefit of doubt and believe him and take the money. (I'd probably want to know why he's giving it to me, but in case he replies with 'hey, you either take it or leave it', then I'll take it ...) Quote:
This is the perfect love.
Yes, but then it's flawed when it comes to true perfection. People can be extremely evil in this life (with all kinds of grave consequences for other people on this planet) and still be saved. Perfect love? No, honestly it seems God loves the evil more than he loves the good. Basically God is handing over a blank check to everyone. Okey, I see this is very loving of him/her/it, but abuse is tolerated no matter what.
Do you actually believe in hell? When do people end up there? If Jesus saved us all there's no point in having a hell, infact, there's no point in having a Heaven either. Off course, if everyone's equally loved and no matter what,
Cheers
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