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Re: Why do you belive/not belive in god?
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#126231
05/15/07 00:24
05/15/07 00:24
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
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I hope you don't mind  , but I'd like to comment a bit on your view. You seem to assume there's no such thing as infinity then, when I understand correctly? Because when something does exist, you seem to assume it wasn't always there. It's certain the universe has been different from what it's now, but it's not certain that it wasn't always around already, although very different. I think ultimately our problem is time, someone should really design a time-machine (if possible at all  ) so we can figure out certain things. I'm not attacking your view, but it really seems to me you are thinking a bit like this; "because we don't know, it or there has to be God, because God gives a purpose". Actually, when I'm thinking about it, that's circular reasoning, exchanging one uncertainty for another to explain both, mmm,  Just my thoughts there though, Quote:
im not an atheist.
im an agnostic...
the difference is, that atheists know that they belive nothing and agnostics belive that they know nothing...
and this thread is not useless at all, since I wanted to know why people belive what they belive. i dont want to change opinions, i want to know opinions...
Agnostics usually say you can't possibly know if there is a God or not. Atheists believe there can't be a God.
If people say a lack of evidence is no evidence for the contrary, then I must admit that's probably right when it comes to logic. However, in reality you can't know if thát's right. What you definitely can not do based on that lack of evidence, is claim that something does exist. Personally I'm pretty sure God can't exist, because of it's artificial and 'supernatural' definition,
Cheers
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Re: Why do you belive/not belive in god?
[Re: PHeMoX]
#126232
05/16/07 05:19
05/16/07 05:19
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
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Quote:
I hope you don't mind , but I'd like to comment a bit on your view.
Not at all. I love this sort of discussion.
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You seem to assume there's no such thing as infinity then, when I understand correctly?
I couldn't tell you for sure whether or not there is an actual infinite "something." There may be some thing that is infinite, that I just don't know of.
Space, perhaps?
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Because when something does exist, you seem to assume it wasn't always there.
No, what I know is that by the nature of time, time could not have existed forever. There has to be a starting point. Time cannot be an actual infinite, it can only be a potential infinite.
Therefore, the universe had a beginning.
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It's certain the universe has been different from what it's now, but it's not certain that it wasn't always around already, although very different.
No, its quite certain that the universe hasn't been around forever. Otherwise we would never have reached "today". If you can keep stacking days one on top the other one day at a time (and have been doing this for an infinite amount of time) there will be a never-ending amount of days that would never happen because there would be an infinite amount of days before getting there. The same is true going back in time, so we can deduce that it isn't possible for the universe to have existed forever.
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I think ultimately our problem is time, someone should really design a time-machine (if possible at all ) so we can figure out certain things.
Unless that time machine throws us into alternate universes, and then we aren't getting anywhere.
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I'm not attacking your view, but it really seems to me you are thinking a bit like this; "because we don't know, it or there has to be God, because God gives a purpose".
Well, it seems to me that you substituted my certainty for your own uncertainty and then projected. I'm certain that the universe had a start, I'm certain that it was "chosen" to be the way it is (finely-tuned, I mean), and I'm certain that life was designed in some way. This all implies that the universe, and life is the end result of the will of some personal force that's "beyond" the universe. To me.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: Why do you belive/not belive in god?
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#126233
05/16/07 13:00
05/16/07 13:00
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
jcl
Chief Engineer
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Quote:
Agnostics usually say you can't possibly know if there is a God or not. Atheists believe there can't be a God.
Not 100% correct. We don't believe there can't be a God. We just don't believe in God.
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No, what I know is that by the nature of time, time could not have existed forever. There has to be a starting point. Time cannot be an actual infinite, it can only be a potential infinite.
This is your personal opinion, but most mathematicians and physicists wouldn't agree with you. No one has ever proven or found an argument why time should need a starting point.
The same goes for the universe. Our own universe certainly had a starting point, but something else likely existed before. It is possible, but unlikely that the universe came from nothing. Today, physics can only speculate what that "something" was, like an 11-dimensional eternal space with colliding membranes as string theory suggests. But I'm sure in the next decades we'll learn more about what was before the universe.
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Re: Why do you belive/not belive in god?
[Re: jcl]
#126234
05/16/07 23:29
05/16/07 23:29
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
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Quote:
Not 100% correct. We don't believe there can't be a God. We just don't believe in God.
Woops, mixed part of my own view with a definition there. :O
Cheers
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Re: Why do you belive/not belive in god?
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#126236
05/16/07 23:43
05/16/07 23:43
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
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Quote:
Logic demands it.
Well, not really. If something has an end, it's logical to assume it had a start. However we're more or less right in the middle of knowing either side, right? We don't know if time will end, nor do we know if it started... Logic doesn't demand infinity to have a start, and you can't rule out the possibility of time being infinite.
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rofl
If you're slightly lost in this logic, look at all negative values out there. Basically something out of nothing, in my opinion would be a negative number becoming positive. A negative size doesn't quite exist, right, or does it?
Cheers
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Re: Why do you belive/not belive in god?
[Re: PHeMoX]
#126237
05/16/07 23:53
05/16/07 23:53
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
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Quote:
Well, not really. If something has an end, it's logical to assume it had a start. However we're more or less right in the middle of knowing either side, right? We don't know if time will end, nor do we know if it started... Logic doesn't demand infinity to have a start, and you can't rule out the possibility of time being infinite.
I've already plainly stated my views on this. And no, logic doesn't say that infinity has a start. By its definition, infinity will never have a start because you can always traverse an infinite number of days before getting there, so you'll never reach it. If you reach the start, then you know it isn't infinite.
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If you're slightly lost in this logic, look at all negative values out there. Basically something out of nothing, in my opinion would be a negative number becoming positive. A negative size doesn't quite exist, right, or does it?
No, believe me I'm not lost on the logic at all. If nothing, including time, existed, then at what point did existence start? If nothing exists, it will exist for an eternity because there will be no time. That means the universe will never begin.
A negative size violates the law of non-contradiction.
Furthermore, that's a poor analogy. Something coming out of nothing isn't paralleled by a positive number coming out of a negative number. That would be something coming from something.
Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 05/16/07 23:58.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: Why do you belive/not belive in god?
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#126238
05/17/07 00:06
05/17/07 00:06
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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I wasn't talking about numbers, but negative sizes. A negative size doesn't exist, which is exactly what we were after more or less; 'nothing'. Extremely small things still have positive sizes. So, the analogy was good in my humble opinion. Quote:
A negative size violates the law of non-contradiction.
Contradicting, how? We can't measure negative sizes, but it's not contradicting, or is it?
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By its definition, infinity will never have a start because you can always traverse an infinite number of days before getting there, so you'll never reach it. If you reach the start, then you know it isn't infinite.
If something goes on forever it's infinite, thus theoretically it can have a start. Tricky part is, how do you know it will go on forever? I guess, potentially infinite is a correct description. There's no real way of knowing if it is infinite, but assuming it is infinite (let's assume you've seen there's no end for logic's sake), then why wouldn't this be absolute infinity?
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If nothing exists, it will exist for an eternity because there will be no time.
Eternity is a long time though. 
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That means the universe will never begin.
Which wasn't the case, so either time has always been there 'so it could happen' or the absence of time is irrelevant for a universe to come into existence. Naturally at some point time must simply exist yes, but if there are no positive sizes, no distances and no motion then even if time does exist in this nothingness, it'll be "neutral" and non-indicative. I think time is quite artificial actually, but that's a different topic altogether,
Cheers
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Re: Why do you belive/not belive in god?
[Re: PHeMoX]
#126239
05/17/07 23:27
05/17/07 23:27
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
Wisconsin
Irish_Farmer
User
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Wisconsin
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Quote:
I wasn't talking about numbers, but negative sizes. A negative size doesn't exist, which is exactly what we were after more or less; 'nothing'.
Ok, I guess I see your analogy....though I'll have to revisit why this is still a problem, later in the post.
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Contradicting, how? We can't measure negative sizes, but it's not contradicting, or is it?
Yes, a negative size is not logically possible. Size is the measure of an object's spacial dimensions. The measure of spatial dimensions will always leave you with a positive number. You can't have a square-circle, and you can't have a line that's -3 inches long. It hurts my brain even trying to imagine such a thing.
I don't know if that's really the law of non-contradiction, I guess, but its illogical and impossible.
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If something goes on forever it's infinite, thus theoretically it can have a start.
Its a potential infinite. Which is what the universe is.
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Tricky part is, how do you know it will go on forever?
You don't, I guess. That's why they call it a 'potential' infinite.
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There's no real way of knowing if it is infinite, but assuming it is infinite (let's assume you've seen there's no end for logic's sake), then why wouldn't this be absolute infinity?
Because an absolute infinite has no beginning or end, which is what seperates it from a potential infinite. That's just its definition. And it doesn't help anyway. If you're trying to prove the universe has been around forever, you can't postulate that it has had a beginning, which is what my point was.
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Eternity is a long time though.
Exactly.
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Which wasn't the case, so either time has always been there 'so it could happen' or the absence of time is irrelevant for a universe to come into existence.
The existence of the universe, and the absence of non-existence is an interesting subject. However, this was my point with there being some extra-universal force. Something that would make time irrelevant, because if nothing existed above and beyond the universe, then the universe (having a beginning, and needing a start based on my previous points) would never have started. So you're kind of following my trail here, we're just probably going to part ways when it comes to there being some kind of extra-universal "cause" or "force", which may or may not be personal (eg God) depending on further inference.
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Naturally at some point time must simply exist yes, but if there are no positive sizes, no distances and no motion then even if time does exist in this nothingness, it'll be "neutral" and non-indicative. I think time is quite artificial actually, but that's a different topic altogether,
Ok, time is somewhat illusory. But if this is truly a "nothingness", then time wouldn't exist. Otherwise that would defeat the purpose of the nothingness.
Last edited by Irish_Farmer; 05/17/07 23:28.
"The task force finds that...the unborn child is a whole human being from the moment of fertilization, that all abortions terminate the life of a human being, and that the unborn child is a separate human patient under the care of modern medicine."
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Re: Why do you belive/not belive in god?
[Re: Irish_Farmer]
#126240
05/18/07 08:50
05/18/07 08:50
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
jcl
Chief Engineer
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Chief Engineer
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
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I don't want to be nitpicking, but you're misunderstanding the concept of potential and actual infinity. This concept was introduced by Aristotle, and has nothing to do with whether an infinite quantity has a "beginning" or not. An example of potential infinity is the sequence of real numbers. An example of actual infinity is the cardinal number of the set of all real numbers. Another actual infinity is the famous number "Omega", the smallest number that is greater than any finite number. Infinities in nature, like space and time, are usually treated as actual infinities. Space and time are similar in modern physics - general relativity makes no basic distinction between them. If you had some starting point for space, or for time, they'd still be actual infinities, as long as there's no ending point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinityhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_CantorAnd, just FYI: negative sizes are used in physics all the time. The time-space metric becomes negative along certain curves, for instance movement faster than light.
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