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Re: Any Muslims here? [Re: Ran Man] #122139
04/16/07 16:30
04/16/07 16:30
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
R
Robotronic Offline
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Robotronic  Offline
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Munich, Germany
@ RanMan

Unlike Jesus, Mohammed was not only a prophet but also a political and military leader. For this reason you can completely misunderstand his general message if you only rely on some isolated suras, because they may or may not have a general or absolute quality.

The passage from the sura (9:28-31), that you quoted, refers to the "campaign to Tabuk" and it has - according to Muslim sources - the following historical context:

Quote:


The Campaign to Tabuk was the result of conflict with the Roman Empire, that had started even before the conquest of Makkah. One of the missions sent after the Treaty of Hudaibiyah to different parts of Arabia visited the clans which lived in the northern areas adjacent to Syria. The majority of these people were Christians, who were under the influence of the Roman Empire. Contrary to all the principles of the commonly accepted international law, they killed fifteen members of the delegation near a place known as Zat-u-Talah (or Zat-i-Itlah). Only Ka'ab bin Umair Ghifari, the head of the delegation, succeeded in escaping and reporting the sad incident. Besides this, Shurahbll bin Amr, the Christian governor of Busra, who was directly under the Roman Caesar, had also put to death Haritli bin Umair, the ambassador of the Holy Prophet, who had been sent to him on a similar minion.





source

So, there was apparently a very strong reason to go to war at this time. And don´t tell me, that Christian nations today - or 1000 years ago - would have "turned the other cheek" here.

@ Kinji:

Of course it´s unlikely that Jesus - if we look at his attitude as a whole - would have approved of the terrible things, that were committed in his name.

About this question:

Quote:


What about a non-muslim thats not under protection?





Please see my first message on this topic. I could only repeat myself here.

Re: Any Muslims here? [Re: Ran Man] #122140
04/16/07 18:05
04/16/07 18:05
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 61
miami
gunplay Offline
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gunplay  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 61
miami
Quote:


But, saying that fundamentalist Christianity is dangerous like fundamentalist Islam is, well that is nonsense.




People always seem to forget that the Ku Klux Klan is a fundamentalist Christian group. I would consider them to be very dangerous. Evil people will do evil things, regardless of what religion they claim to practice.

Quote:

I was just trying to make you laugh and add some humor.




im sure Ran Man is a nice guy but most of what you write makes you sound ignorant and bigoted. But then everything is open to interpretation (much like all the holy books in question)

Re: Any Muslims here? [Re: gunplay] #122141
04/16/07 19:14
04/16/07 19:14
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,682
Coppell, Texas
Ran Man Offline
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Ran Man  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,682
Coppell, Texas
@ Gunplay

I like humor and you can see some in my new game screenshot below.

http://www.noahsadventures.com/images/dance7.jpg

I'm not ignorant at all, but I think you guys are missing the point.

Robotronic has pointed out lots of good and valid things.
Thank you for that.

He points out that certain verses are for certain time frames in the Koran. He correctly points out that the Sura 9 passage was for the ancient Romans.

I do agree with him and believe that also.

So, when the Koran says in Sura 9 for example:
"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them" Well that was also meant for an ancient people too.

The only problem is...
It does not actually say that in the Koran. The targets of violence is not NAMED in the Koran, and therefore is left up to the reader and whoever comments on it.

In contrast, the bible does name its targets in the book, so no commentator can say otherwise.

I'm not comparing the two religions, but only talking the difference in the holy books.

I just think it is interesting, that's all.
Isn't it interesting when a holy book says "KILL THEM!" over and over and it is left up to commentators to decide who THEM actually is?
Interesting huh?

Oh well, nice talking with you guys...


Cougar Interactive

www.zoorace.com
Re: Any Muslims here? [Re: Ran Man] #122142
04/16/07 22:14
04/16/07 22:14
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
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PHeMoX  Offline
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Netherlands
Don't worry ran_man, I kinda like your humor and style, it cracks me up every time. Downside is I can't take most of your post serious at all. Sure, it's quite clear when you're serious and when not, but you and being serious is rather rare.

Quote:


In contrast, the bible does name its targets in the book, so no commentator can say otherwise.




Even if the Quran generalizes more, perhaps this is solely out of respect for it's enemies? Perhaps names are not that important? Perhaps the names were forgotten? Perhaps the names in the Christian bible were made up? Perhaps the writers didn't want to copy the bible exactly?

Cheers


PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
Re: Any Muslims here? [Re: AlbertoT] #122143
04/24/07 22:36
04/24/07 22:36
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
A
AlbertoT Offline
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AlbertoT  Offline
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Quote:


I know that Qoran accepts Jesus as one of the prophets but I dont suppose that Qoran claims also that all the stories about Jesus are true
Otherwise Qoran should recognize Jesus as a prophet greater than Mohammed , who, as far as I know , was not supposed to make miracles




I quote myself
I asked an islamic highly educated person this question
According to Koran, the prophet Jesus was given the gift to make miracles
Prophet Mohamed made one only miracle, he splitted the moon in two parts
However Mohamed has been given the greatest gift, the koran , so he must be considered the greatest prophet

Re: Any Muslims here? [Re: AlbertoT] #122144
04/25/07 00:11
04/25/07 00:11
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
Blattsalat Offline
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Blattsalat  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
the difference between the koran and the bible is that jesus is a prhopet like mohammed and not the son of god. he did not raise from the dead.
the basic ideas, his believes and what he decided to be right or wrong are identical. and having this in mind its obscure and sick that people kill other poeple in the name of one book or the other.

if you qoute either the bible or the koran, you will have to explain the context you ripped the parts out of. Just pasting one or two sentences does not work.
Writing "i pulled my gun and then i shot him" and "After he raised his gun to shot me. I pulled my gun and then i shot him" are two totaly different worlds.

any kind of true religion is based on respect.
its not a rat race who has the better god, or book, or religion, or stories.

Making all other religions look worse wont make yours better.

cheers


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Re: Any Muslims here? [Re: Blattsalat] #122145
04/25/07 02:14
04/25/07 02:14
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
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PHeMoX  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
Quote:

any kind of true religion is based on respect.




A lot of religious fanatics have little respect for different beliefs, kind of ironic if you ask me... it's "practice what you preach", right?

Quote:

its not a rat race who has the better god, or book, or religion, or stories.




It should be about truth, but instead no-one is really interested in evidence. An honest person can't claim (to know) God exists, simple.

Quote:

Making all other religions look worse wont make yours better.




It depends on the arguments used, but I suppose you are right.

Cheers


PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
Re: Any Muslims here? [Re: AlbertoT] #122146
04/25/07 02:22
04/25/07 02:22
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 183
K
Kinji_2007 Offline OP
Member
Kinji_2007  Offline OP
Member
K

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 183
Quote:

I quote myself
I asked an islamic highly educated person this question
According to Koran, the prophet Jesus was given the gift to make miracles
Prophet Mohamed made one only miracle, he splitted the moon in two parts
However Mohamed has been given the greatest gift, the koran , so he must be considered the greatest prophet






I am only curious. People that were alive and heard Jesus' teachings were still around when the Gospels went into circulation. Some knew what Jesus taught and said. If they were all lies dont you think someone would have stood up and said so? What documents do we have from anyone in history that claim that they heard Jesus and the writings in the Bible as we know it are incorrect? Were the Disciples all lying? Maybe they were crazy. What about Paul? Surly he was the craziest. I want to base my faith on as much information as possible. I choose the majority. In the case of Mohammad, he had a vision. No body can write about him claiming he did great things beyond human grasp. As Christians we have the Bible written by other people concerning Christ, we have pagan sources to know He existed, we have other facts that lead us to believe He died as recorded.. in the OT you can imagine the list I can make for you. In short.. what other writings could you possibly put your soul on the balance for other than the Bible?

What does the Qu'ran have to offer? Mohammad.. has he done anything that ancient writings and MANY people boast of? (that claim to have seen him or have known of him in their day) I am not knocking the Muslims yet I am saying they are wrong. So that they understand as well as you.. they are 100% wrong. Look at the Bible and koran.. which fits morally? Beyond that.. look at history. Who vouched for Mohammad? Who seen him do things that we cannot explain? Does anyone have any proof at all that he is in fact the one sent from God? Or as they say "Allah". For the record.. I am not downing a religion, I am simply pleading to the un-believers to make the best choice possible and to look at ALL the facts. Dont walk blind, thus in the end your blindness is not an excuse. I know what the atheist think, I know what the Muslims think, I know what the catholics think.. the baptists, even the apostolics. Look for one man that has taught truth.. peace.. love and you find Jesus. What better way to show it then to die for the sins of man? If you claim He is not what He actually is then you must admit that to die in a bad way for another is virtuious. He died for us all. Christian sources as well as non-Christian sources agree to the method of His death. What has Mohammod done other than to share a vision? Not down-grading... just asking.


http://www.geocities.com/carapacedweller/kinjis/Tutorial_Index.html A5 and A6 tutorials <> E3S series "Show me once and I got it, tell me once and I'll think twice."
Re: Any Muslims here? [Re: Kinji_2007] #122147
04/25/07 10:10
04/25/07 10:10
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
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PHeMoX  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
Quote:

What does the Qu'ran have to offer? Mohammad.. has he done anything that ancient writings and MANY people boast of?




Right, religion should be all about boasting in some ancient writings ... You've probably never read some Asian ancient writings about their religious leaders and the boasting they did.

As long as people were able to write, people have been writing about Gods, I don't see this as evidence in favor of any God or Gods, but at least we can state that if anything, Christianity definitely wasn't the first. You seem to vaguely suggest that before Jesus there was no way of knowing about the "real" God. These kind of claims obviously go beyond 'boasting in ancient literature', you're simply convinced of Christianity, don't forget your huge bias.

Quote:

If they were all lies dont you think someone would have stood up and said so?




Perhaps this actually happened. There's no way in knowing this. Besides, if Jesus really was who he is said to have been, then we really really really must assume that ancient people should have been writing more about him. That didn't happen as far as we can tell. In fact, most so called 'historical references' are extremely vague and could mean anyone, apart from the lack of other more physical evidence,

Cheers


PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
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