Hilbert's Hotel

Diskussionsforum zur Unendlichkeit: Theismus, Atheismus, Primzahlen, Unsterblichkeit, das Universum...
Discussing Infinity: theism and atheism, prime numbers, immortality, cosmology, philosophy...

Gamestudio Links
Zorro Links
Newest Posts
Help with plotting multiple ZigZag
by degenerate_762. 04/30/24 23:23
M1 Oversampling
by 11honza11. 04/30/24 08:16
Trading Journey
by howardR. 04/28/24 09:55
Zorro Trader GPT
by TipmyPip. 04/27/24 13:50
Data from CSV not parsed correctly
by jcl. 04/26/24 11:18
Why Zorro supports up to 72 cores?
by jcl. 04/26/24 11:09
Eigenwerbung
by jcl. 04/26/24 11:08
AUM Magazine
Latest Screens
The Bible Game
A psychological thriller game
SHADOW (2014)
DEAD TASTE
Who's Online Now
2 registered members (degenerate_762, AndrewAMD), 877 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
wandaluciaia, Mega_Rod, EternallyCurious, howardR, 11honza11
19049 Registered Users
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Re: A riddle [Re: Blattsalat] #95628
10/24/06 18:32
10/24/06 18:32
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 7,441
ventilator Offline
Senior Expert
ventilator  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 7,441
yes, maybe it's an optical illusion. like blattsalat described it or maybe similar to 3d drawings of a stair where you can choose to see it going up or down.

i have never seen these lights in reality though...

Re: A riddle [Re: ventilator] #95629
10/24/06 18:48
10/24/06 18:48
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
Senior Expert
PHeMoX  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
I think it's an optical illusion too, perhaps our brain really is too slow? The weird effect is the biggest when looking at an airstrip in the dark. I guess, that flashes and darkness really mess up our 'I see a flash'-depth interpretation somehow hahaha.

Cheers


PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
Re: A riddle [Re: Excessus] #95630
10/24/06 19:25
10/24/06 19:25
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
Pappenheimer Offline
Senior Expert
Pappenheimer  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,900
Bielefeld, Germany
Quote:


I think our brain sees the light as a different object when it is on or off. While it is on, the light seems to move up on your 'screen', then it goes off ('dissapears') and goes on again: 'reapears' (if it would continue to move 'up' at that speed) at the position of the next light.





I guess, Excessus is right.
This means, it is the sort of optical illusion of
turning wheels in movies that ello mentioned*:
static pictures interupted by darkness
which are re-connected by the brain to get a continuous movement.
------
*- the wheels which seemed to turn back while they turn fast forward -

Re: A riddle [Re: Pappenheimer] #95631
10/24/06 19:40
10/24/06 19:40
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX Offline
Senior Expert
PHeMoX  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
About the wheels, that's only true for anything recorded I think hehehe.

Quote:

Only in a movie. You never see them turn backwards in real life.




I've got a remote controlled model helicopter and when the blades start spinning you never see an optical illusion of them 'turning backwards in slowmotion', this must either be a standard movie effect or the effect of simply recording something and playing it back with a limited (lower) amount of frames per second ...

As for the phenomenon, it's pretty interesting. Perhaps the brain is fast enough to see two different lights 'arrive' at different times, but I think the 'auto correction' of the brain would mess things up.

When I think of it, if our brain would be able to see or notice two lights arrive at different times, wouldn't this cause a gigantic smearing effect for all lights we see, because it would imply that we could actually see the lightbeams? So I think our brains are not that fast, or it may 'over correct' what we see when 'interpretating'.

Cheers

Last edited by PHeMoX; 10/24/06 19:41.

PHeMoX, Innervision Software (c) 1995-2008

For more info visit: Innervision Software
Re: A riddle [Re: PHeMoX] #95632
10/25/06 08:19
10/25/06 08:19
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
jcl Offline OP

Chief Engineer
jcl  Offline OP

Chief Engineer

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,986
Frankfurt
Ok, I'll reveal the solution of the riddle.

A position-dependent flash sequence can have two reasons. The simplest one is that it's a very old airport with rotating beacons for the runway lights. All beacons rotate synchroneously, so their light beams always have the same angle. Therefore when looking at the runway sidewards from a distance, they all flash at the same time. However when an aircraft approaches the runway or takes off, the beacons are seen in slightly different directions by the pilot, so their light beams become visible in sequence.

However, our airport doesn't use rotating beacons but xenon flashes. Still, you see them flash in sequence even when they all light up at the same time. The reason is indeed the optical effect mentioned by Blattsalat. Our optical nerves react faster on a bright flash than on a dim flash, so close lights are seen a little earlier than far-away lights. Although the flashes appear to have the same brightness, it's an optical illusion - a flash close to us has in fact four times the brightness than a flash in twice the distance. For a similar reason, when you see street lamps suddenly go on in the evening, you have the impression that they are switched on in sequence.

BTW, this was a small hypothetical airport - big commercial airports use non-flashing runway lights and lights that flash in a real sequence _before_ the runway.

Re: A riddle [Re: jcl] #95633
10/25/06 09:42
10/25/06 09:42
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 155
C:\Program files\GStudio6
alphaindigo Offline
Member
alphaindigo  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 155
C:\Program files\GStudio6
the phenomenon with the turning wheels or ther spinning objects apearing to turn the wrontg way only apears at a specific speed this is when the wheel has turned almost completely since the last frame of the movie and so the brain percieves it as moveing backwards, it then apears when the wheel has done almost two rotations since the last frame and so on. it is because film is a seriese of pictures whereas in real life we see the continual stream of movement so dont notice it.


beware the sock! - tLempoary...
Re: A riddle [Re: alphaindigo] #95634
10/26/06 20:50
10/26/06 20:50
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Dan Silverman Offline
Senior Expert
Dan Silverman  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 11,321
Virginia, USA
Quote:

Only in a movie. You never see them turn backwards in real life.




This is not true. It can indeed be seen in real life. In fact, my entire family was travelling north on a highway when we were passing an 18 wheeler (a truck). One of my kids became really excited and asked outloud why the front wheels of that truck were moving backwards! We all looked and sure enough the illusion of the wheels moving backwards was very strong! The truck had very shiney rims with many, many nuts/bolts to hold the tire onto the hub. It was a bright day and the light reflecting off the rims was pretty intense. However, the nuts looked as if they were moving in the opposite direction and thus the wheel looked like it was rotating backwards.

Last edited by Dan Silverman; 10/26/06 20:51.

Professional 2D, 3D and Real-Time 3D Content Creation:
HyperGraph Studios
Re: A riddle [Re: Dan Silverman] #95635
10/27/06 01:02
10/27/06 01:02
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,959
US
G
Grimber Offline
Expert
Grimber  Offline
Expert
G

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,959
US
has to do with strobic effect and the mechanics in how our eyes work ( we don't see continuously, but in 'frames' just like a movie or video game)

Re: A riddle [Re: Grimber] #95636
10/27/06 03:24
10/27/06 03:24
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
Blattsalat Offline
Senior Expert
Blattsalat  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,181
Austria
the wheel effect has to do with the "scanning" frequenz of our eyes/brain =~ 24frames a second

if the wheel turns exactly the angle of one spoke in one frame our eye cant recognize if its turning forward or backwards. similar to what happens if you post 2 screenshots next to each other where one wheel has turned just the ammount of one or a multiple of the spoke angle. (the wheels match on each other so does our brain "see" it as well)

if now the wheel turns just a little bit less then the distance of the single spokes it seams to turn backwards.

this would work with a flip-book as well or your monitor: imagine a point at the very right of the screen. Now with every frame the point moves 100% of the direction. the result would be nothing - a still standing point.
if the point now only moves 99% of this direction per frame, it will start to move slowly from the right side to the left one till it appears on the origin again.

now its up to you to figure out what happens at 10% or even at 50%

phew, way to much text for something so unimportant like this
especially if you put some spin-wheels on your car

sreehc


Models, Textures and Levels at:
http://www.blattsalat.com/
portfolio:
http://showcase.blattsalat.com/
Re: A riddle [Re: Blattsalat] #95637
10/27/06 03:42
10/27/06 03:42
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 7,441
ventilator Offline
Senior Expert
ventilator  Offline
Senior Expert

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 7,441
our eyes don't have a scanning frequency or a shutter like a film/video camera.

i think sometimes wheels themselves can work like a camera shutter. for example if you look through openings of the rims at something moving behind them or if some reflection on the chrome only happens at a certain angle which changes while overtaking the vehicle or something like that. then your eyes receive light flashes at a certain frequency and a strobe effect occurs.

Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  jcl, Lukas, old_bill, Spirit 

Kompaktes W�rterbuch des UnendlichenCompact Dictionary of the Infinite


Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1