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Re: Multiplayer Capabilities with A6
[Re: Damocles]
#90607
09/19/06 01:03
09/19/06 01:03
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377
USofA
fastlane69
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377
USofA
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While I agree with Damocles that the networking engine is not 3DGS' strong suit, it more than makes up for this with the ease that it's integrated into the other engines such as graphics and interface. Consider that having to use Torque entails high-level c++ programming to get anything done or that using RakNet requires the integration of other graphics and interface engines again with significant c++ development time.
I disagree however that you need strong plugin coding to get a MMO up and running with 3DGS Pro Native. In the first version of my MMO, I created an entire, non-sql based system with 100% 3DGS. As my ARCHITECTURE was not robust enough for my needs, in the second version (the one we are currently working on) we have adopted an SQL backend and still no need for a network based plugin. After all, a packet is a packet is a packet and the routers and OSI stack handles them the same whether they come in from Torque, 3DGS, RakNet, or any other engine… it's how you handle the packet after it comes into your computer that makes all the difference and it is here, in the architecture, that games are made or broken. If you have a good idea working sense of network architectures, you'll find ways to make 3DGS work and work well… if you think network architectures refers to the designing the house to store the servers you have no hope of accomplishing a mmo.
In short I see no reason why an MMO can't be built with 3DGS native. I've said this from day one and continue to labor under this opinion. However there is no "click to make game button" anymore than there is a "click to make mmo" button and when you endeavour to create an MMO, no matter what engine you choose, you are embarking on the most difficult and intense of all game development journeys and one which no choice of game engine will make significantly easier… it's a bitch no matter who you choose!
(PS: Damocles is 100% correct though that you will need some plugin support is you wish to have lobby-based multiplayer enabled in 3DGS such as seen in CS or Warcraft since there is no native way for 3DGS to seek out hosted sessions in a lobby fashion .)
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Re: Multiplayer Capabilities with A6
[Re: fastlane69]
#90608
09/19/06 08:03
09/19/06 08:03
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 32
England
AndyH
Newbie
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Newbie
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 32
England
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I had a quick tinker with 3DGS MMO a while back and kept at it for a few months, never got very far. I have jumped ship I am afraid: http://www.garagegames.com/products/1together with http://www.mydreamrpg.com/Has seen me in a few weeks get further forward than I would have ever got with 3DGS. Nothing is perfect though! TGE and the MMOKIT give you a real push forward in MMO development but there are issues, it is software after all! But, the MMOKIT is in constant development, the feature list got me hooked! And they are a great set of people, ready to help and listen to ideas. I suppose I am thinking to the future with my latest choice, TGE is getting a fair bit of development attention and looks (to my novice eye) to do the job - the MMOKIT will prove to be an invaluable resource, saving you hundreds of hours of code time - I see it as a starting point for me to hack and tweak to get it how I want it. I suppose the overriding factor though was the cost. I paid $100 for TGE and $99 for MMOKIT. So, for $199 I get an MMO base that has SQL, zoneing capability and no connection limit. Basicaly to get this with 3DGS I would have needed to get Pro (which was my intention when I started with commercial), Pro costs $899 - a no brainer I am afraid. I do not want to start yet another Torque vs. 3DGS thread, TGE tools are minimal (model editor, structure editor, etc.) so look carefully as you will need other tools which could cost money. Once you have your art assets though the world editor in TGE is great - was really looking forward to getting it in 3DGS but alas it is too late for me! Just my humble opinion of someone who has tried multiplayer with 3DGS and failed. AndyH
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Re: Multiplayer Capabilities with A6
[Re: AndyH]
#90609
09/19/06 17:47
09/19/06 17:47
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377
USofA
fastlane69
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377
USofA
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Quote:
I suppose the overriding factor though was the cost. I paid $100 for TGE and $99 for MMOKIT. So, for $199 I get an MMO base that has SQL, zoneing capability and no connection limit. Basicaly to get this with 3DGS I would have needed to get Pro (which was my intention when I started with commercial), Pro costs $899 - a no brainer I am afraid.
Not such a no brainer if you are making a commercial MMOG.
You bring up a very valid point in that with Torque you have to supplement the tools that come with 3DGS native. I too do not want a war, it's neither wanted nor needed, but consider the limitations of the Torque Indie license:
- You cannot have this license owned by a company or business. This is severely weird in todays game industry and means if you are serious about making a game, you cannot use this license.
- You have to display the Torque logo for 2 seconds during start up and include an about box with links to Torque and their logo. No biggie, but I like the option of who I advertise for.
- You still don't have the Torque Shader Engine (150 USD)
- Should your annual revenue ever go beyond 250k USD per year (which with a real MMO is a distinct possibility considering hardware and bandwidth), you would have to pay for the Torque Commercial License (395 USD) and the Torque Net Commercial licentse (995 USD).
- Furthermore, that I'm aware of, they only offer per seat licensing on both commercial and indie license.
I've always said that Torque and 3DGS are "fairly" equal at what they offer technologically and very equal in the games that are made by their customers but they differ significantly in their business model. I find torque to be too complicated and ever changing (these terms are only a year old I think and radically different than what they had 2 years ago) and they may change again.
Also, you may not be saving money when, if you actually go commercial, you will have to pay much more for commercial with TorqueNet and TorqueShade (1540 USD total) and this would be per seat. So a team of 4 people would have to pay 6.16k USD under torque to develop a commercial game while a team of 5 would have to pay 1.8k USD for one 3DGS pro license and a 3 seat team license.
On paper, Torques plan is good for if you reach the 250k USD mark, you can certainly afford the price increase. But this is their plan now and it changes year by year. Furthermore, since it can't be bought by a company, developing as a real business is hindered under the Indie license and IMO you are force to do the commercial license anyways. In light of this, the stability of what I consider a simple license, simple pricing, and the longevity of 3DGS as a company are two reasons why I have stuck with it. But if your requirements and business structure is different, then I would say Torque is the next best choice.
Of course all of the above assumes that you can create the same game with both engines but that is a debate I do NOT wish to re-start here. 
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Re: Multiplayer Capabilities with A6
[Re: fastlane69]
#90610
09/21/06 08:35
09/21/06 08:35
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,320
Alberta, Canada
William
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,320
Alberta, Canada
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Quote:
(PS: Damocles is 100% correct though that you will need some plugin support is you wish to have lobby-based multiplayer enabled in 3DGS such as seen in CS or Warcraft since there is no native way for 3DGS to seek out hosted sessions in a lobby fashion .)
Isn't it possible to store a list of the IP addresses(servers) in a database(mySQL), then call upon that list when in a lobby of your main server? Or that's how I thinking of going about it anyways... just need something so the user can choose from what server they'll play on. How'r you going about it for your project?
From Forecast:
Quote:
Multiplayer Management (edition: Pro; in development)
New engine functions for opening and closing a session as server or client, and managing and dropping clients.
Would this be the native support were looking for?
Forgive my inexperience; i'm just starting to set the online(database) portion up. While my project works with multiplayer, i've just need to do the interface end of things now.
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Multiplayer Capabilities with A6
[Re: fastlane69]
#90614
09/29/06 18:16
09/29/06 18:16
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 188
Latvia
MDI
Member
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Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 188
Latvia
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I dont know much with thie all!! But from me thats been very GOOOOOD!! When i make anything with my own force possible i think diferent!!
Latvija rullē
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