optional physics more better "ageia"

Posted By: Felixsg

optional physics more better "ageia" - 06/15/06 08:42

Can include Support for the ageia chip
also that have new options to the physics without
the chip
(cloth, particles physics, and a large etc...)
http://www.ageia.com/
Posted By: TWO

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 06/15/06 11:28

That has been requestet before: Conitec will think about implement it when the chip is standart
Posted By: Doug

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 06/15/06 19:39

Marco tried to get some answers on how the licensing would work from Ageia. As far as I know, they haven't gotten back to him.

This was some time ago, so maybe they have a less vague licensing arrangement.
Posted By: Felixsg

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 06/17/06 06:31

xpresso: the chip is not needed for the physics only less power by software, and appear all new games is including the physx engine(ageia), I think if less expensive that other

Doug: Thanks for the answer, I think ageia like money for every game you sell, but I don't know the conditions for conitec for include in gamestudio

sorry by my english
Posted By: xoNoid

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 06/17/06 10:01

From the Physx site:

Quote:

How do I become a licensed developer and what are the licensing terms?
Costs
At present, the following two options are all that are available. We will likely never provide any sort of royalty-based license. Open-source usage is limited only to the most middleware-friendly license model--in other words, we retain full ownership and rights to our own IP, and what you ship of ours will still be specified by contract.

Free:
Non-commercial use
PS3 platform (through Sony pre-purchase)
Through some of our middleware partnerships, such as UE3, Gamebryo 2.2, and others--often limited to non-commercial use
PC platform (if the game makes significant use of PhysX HW)
$50k per platform:
All other uses
Fee may be waived at our disgression for multi-platform developers providing PC HW support
Fee may be waived at our disgression for some Tools & Middleware providers



Posted By: Doug

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 06/20/06 01:59

So, in short, we may be able to convince them not to charge Conitec to include PhysX, but then our users will have to pay $50K unless their project is non-commercial. I don't see this being very popular for most of our users.


Another solution, and this is where things still get really vague, is that Conitec could spend a lot of money to licensed PhysX but now all your projects would have to use PhysX hardware to run.

Neither solution sounds like a good deal for our customers.
Posted By: ulillillia

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 06/20/06 02:48

The hardware is also extremely new so very few systems would have such hardware available. Only hardcore gamers would likely have it by now. With a new type of hardware, the bugs need to be worked out as well. However, disabling the requirement of having physics through a commandline would be the next best option. Just as sound can be disabled by adding -os in the command line, the use of a physics card could be disabled by adding -op in a similar sense. After a few months (or about a year), then looking into such hardware being incorporated into Gamestudio could be possible.
Posted By: Doug

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 06/20/06 19:09

Quote:

However, disabling the requirement of having physics through a commandline would be the next best option.




Then you have to pay $50k to use the non-hardware version of PhysX.

Or we can keep our physics engine and add the option to use PhysX, allowing you to select which one you use. But that would cost us a great deal of time and money, and very few users would be able to use it.


If you *really* want to use PhysX, you could add it yourself just like you can add Newton. Download the SDK and have fun. But I don't think Conitec can make this part of our engine without some crazy legal work.
Posted By: ulf

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 06/26/06 21:54

the warlock with waving cloth, yay!
Posted By: Matt_Aufderheide

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/03/06 06:59

I really do doubt that physics chips will ever become standard. It requires a whole new API standard for one thing, a large installed-base, and user interest--so far there are none of these things, and may never be. I dont doubt that physics and such will be improved, but as for specific hardware implementations, I dont think so for the near future--if ever.

No one is going to buy a special physics chip..the only way it can succeed is if its integrated with a video card, or on the motherboard.
Posted By: Doug

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/03/06 19:48

Matt: This is getting a bit off-topic, but I can give you my two-cents.

The user interest is there already. HL2 showed that plenty of people love physics in games and would be willing to upgrade their hardware to get the best performance. And developers are interested as well. The PC version of GRAW, City of Heroes, and many up-coming games will include PhysX enhanced versions.

API standard? The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. If Ageia works as advertised and it wasn't so pricey, it would be a huge hit among developers. I'm guessing it is only a matter of time before Microsoft buys Ageia (or makes something like it) and DirectPhysics becomes the standard for games.

Installed base? This is the Catch-22 of all new technology. If Ageia gets ATI and/or nVidia to put PhysX on high-end graphic cards, this will take care of itself. In the meantime, PhysX works without hardware as well.

I'm not saying that PhysX is the future, it's going to take a lot of work and luck for them even to survive, but I don't think their idea is doomed.

But I think we are saying the same thing. PhysX is most likely going to succeed as part of the MoBo or video card.
Posted By: Matt_Aufderheide

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/04/06 09:43

ok sorry for going off-topic

While what you say makes sense, I still dont think the future of games/simulations is a specialized hardware for everything.

I dont see why CPU-based physics isnt good enough for the future, as it's pretty darn good in games like Half-life 2, Oblivion, etc. As CPUs get faster, won't physics models improve as well? Is the answer to every limitation going to be new specialized hardware hardware?

what about the "rainFX" chip, or the "realGrass" chip, or whatever? You could conceivably build chips for anything like this..making the developers life a pure hell, and the users life just an excersize in futility trying to keep up.

Oh well, I'm not against physics acceleration per se, but I do think it has to be part of the cpu or motherbpoard/video card, rather than a stand alone. ..
Posted By: ventilator

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/04/06 09:56

the physics hardware isn't that specialized. it's a vector processor and quite similar to a modern gpu. i think ati and nvidia won't need anything from ageia since they already have everything needed and their chips even are much faster.

soon there also will be quad core cpus with doubled sse performance (sse is for vector processing too).

i don't think a separate physics card which can't be used for anything else makes sense.
Posted By: old_bill

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/04/06 17:25

In my opinion these addon pci-cards are at the moments only for
the real geeks, the pioneers.
When the critc mass is reached, these chips will be onboard,
as this was the same case with SCSI addons and things like that.
With the cards I have seen till yet, this should not be no problem,
just like another southbridge.

old_bill
Posted By: ventilator

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/04/06 17:34

but this chip isn't that special. shader pipelines (especially shader model > 3) can do the same. there is no reason to add this physics chip anywhere. the reviews and sales so far also have been very poor.

ati and nvidia will just have to add more and more shader pipelines which will happen anyway (the top cards already have around 48). then a bunch of them always can be used for physics.
Posted By: old_bill

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/04/06 17:42

I'm not familar with the techniques in detail, but as far as they offer
an software device for it, this would be great.

But as always, some high-priced "toys" have to be released and tried
in public, before they will end up with an more comfortable and cheaper solution.

old_bill
Posted By: beegee

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/05/06 14:42

I've heard that Microsoft is delevopping "Direct Physics", an implementation for the new DirectX. Bad: DX10 will be only for Vista. Plus: Maybe some engine programmers, can get easier ways for writing a great physic for their games.


mfg beegee

---------
GenuineMotors.de
Posted By: Doug

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/06/06 01:52

Quote:

I've heard that Microsoft is delevopping "Direct Physics"




Where did you hear this? If it is true, I'd like to know more about it.
Some people (me included ) have talked about DirectPhysics but, AFAIK, Microsoft hasn't done anything.


Quote:

I still dont think the future of games/simulations is a specialized hardware for everything.




Neither do I. I've had some wonderful conversations with people about the problems with "AI Hardware".


Quote:

I dont see why CPU-based physics isnt good enough for the future... As CPUs get faster, won't physics models improve as well?




True. But why do we still spend $80 to $800 on special video cards? And why is sound still handled by a separate chip (which is now part of the motherboard)? CPUs today could easily handle the graphics you had in Quake 2 but what hardcore gamer would be happy today with that when they could have shaders, mirrors, blur, bump-map, etc. all at 90+ FPS?

If (and this is a big IF) physics can benefit the same way as graphics and sound does by having special hardware, then what hardcore gamer would be happy with HL2 physics when they can have a 1000+ objects on the screen all moving with realist forces; water that can "pour" out of pipes, onto desks, around the player's legs, causing all the objects in the room to float depending on their mass; and car crashes that are not "canned" but actually model the damage to the vehicle (from dents and cracked tail-light up to bending the frame and cracking the engine block). These are the sort of hype that people are saying physics hardware can deliver.

Now we have to see if reality lives up to the hype.
Posted By: beegee

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/06/06 17:07

OK, you're right Doug! Microsoft isn't delevopping DirectPhysics at the moment, but they are searching great programmers who can do this. And then it will be implemented in the next DirectX-Generation.

mfg beegee

-----------
GenuineMotors.de
Posted By: Doug

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/06/06 22:53

Even if Microsoft makes DirectPhysics, it will take three versions before you'd want to use it.
Posted By: Matt_Aufderheide

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/07/06 04:02

Quote:

but this chip isn't that special. shader pipelines (especially shader model > 3) can do the same. there is no reason to add this physics chip anywhere. the reviews and sales so far also have been very poor.

ati and nvidia will just have to add more and more shader pipelines which will happen anyway (the top cards already have around 48). then a bunch of them always can be used for physics.




I think Ventilator is very much correct; this is good point. Physics simulations are just vector math, so I dont doubt that eventually you can implement a physics system on the GPU.

However, I wonder how collision could be handled? Because right now vertex shaders just move vertexes around after being sent down the pipeline...Maybe do the collisions on the CPU, and the rest of the physics on the GPU? (I dont know about this area..)
Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/07/06 08:02

As far as I read from magazines both ATI and NVidia are working on such a solution . ATI told that a second graphic card could deliver even more physics power than this special physics card. When that is true then this physics card will not have a great future.
Posted By: beegee

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/07/06 11:29

I have to agree with Frank_G. "Ageia Physx" will have a really bad future and another bad points are:

- not many games support this; now: Ghost Recon3,Rise of Legends future: ut 2007,sacred 2, warhammer online

- too expensive ( 250 €)

- not better and faster as you could see it

- ATI's, NVidia's counterattack


mfg beegee

----------
GenuineMotors.de
Posted By: old_bill

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/07/06 12:44

I think the price does not really count, as said before,
the ethusiasts will buy them if there is support in the games,
that was always the case in the history of this industry, with cpus,
gpus and many other things, which are standard at today.

A problem with the gpu solution could be that ATI and nVidia will design
their own device, and if, we have two to choose from, so developers
have the double work to do for supporting them.
So the support via gpu is not allways a + for this problem in my opinion.

old_bill
Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/07/06 14:14

Yes. Absolutely Old_Bill brought important points here. As far as I know the GPU manufacturers integrate physics in collaboration with Havoks. That is a tool that we cannot afford (at least most of us). But it will be supported in the big engines. So it will make it into games in the future.

But how easy would it be to integrate such hardware gpu phyisics into ODE, Newton or other affordable solutions?
Posted By: lostclimate

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/09/06 20:42

what everyone needs to remember is that 6 years ago we thought we'd never need a 100gig hard drive, and 20 years ago, a graphical operating system "would never be useful".
Posted By: ulillillia

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/10/06 05:23

I still recall the days when a 20 MB hard drive (that's right MB) was top of the line, and I used to have such a hard drive. A 2-floppy game was a big blow on this hard drive and it was very slow. Even today, we're getting into the terabyte range and hard drives could still get into the petabyte range still not being on the atomic scale (but very close to it). I don't recall the specs of the computer, but I know the model as Tandy 1000. Sound, back then, was nothing more than beeps and that sort of thing. Nowadays, sound cards can play sounds 192,000 Hz, 24-bit, 8-channel stereo with such clarity, it's almost life-like.

Physics cards would likely be in the same way. Like the oldest of sound where it was nothing more than beeps (likely with a 30 or 40 dB SNR), physics cards would be in this same way. As time would progress and development continues, it'd be more like sound cards supporting 11,025 Hz, 8-bit, stereo a few years from now and when the 202nd decade starts in 2011, it'd be more like sound cards supporting a CD-quality audio.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/10/06 11:57

That has nothing to do with hard drives. Sound cards are very important for computers and games and nevertheless alot of people do not buy sound cards. They have sound chips onboard.

The same could happen with physics chips. They get incorporated into graphic cards or mother boards. Some "freaks" will buy extra cards but not the standard user.
Posted By: ulillillia

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/10/06 12:14

I'm just giving an example. Back in the early 1990's, a 20 MB hard drive was top of the line. I'm using sound cards as an example to how the future of physics cards might be. Sound is often commonly found onboard the motherboard nowadays. All I was doing is using something related to explain what path physics cards may take for the future. At the moment, mainly hardcore gamers would get it.
Posted By: Doug

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/11/06 18:11

Quote:

The same could happen with physics chips. They get incorporated into graphic cards or mother boards. Some "freaks" will buy extra cards but not the standard user.




This is a more likely solution, although it will be harder to justify a physics chip on the mother board of a "normal" PC. Windows uses sound for Word, Vista uses 3D graphics, but unless Vista-2 requires physics to move the icons around, I think physics chips will probably be part of high-end graphics cards.


Quote:

But how easy would it be to integrate such hardware gpu phyisics into ODE, Newton or other affordable solutions?




Good thinking. Newton is closed, but ODE is an open source solution. You can check on their website, I would be surprised if somebody isn't working on a ODE on GPU solution (if not, you should start one ).

I'd really like to see ODE take off. There needs to be more open source tools and libraries for game development if indies want to stay "in the game". I also don't like putting too much effort into a solution that may go away overnight. If PhysX doesn't have some major success in the next year, they will be quickly forgotten.
Posted By: Matt_Aufderheide

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/12/06 07:36

I think some poeple are missing the point about GPU-based physics: physics simulation/collisions can probably be done in the vertex pipeline ...perhapswith the next generation of cards/directX.

In the meantime CPU-based physics are great as it is--look at Crysis, this game has amazing physics, and I'm pretty sure it either runs on the CPU or GPU.

This would eliminate out any need for an additional physics processor. The fact is, this isnt about whether consumers will buy a physics processor, but whether its really a good idea in the first place. I think not.
Posted By: Doug

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/12/06 19:05

I wouldn't bet on Crysis running on a normal CPU/GPU setup, at least not with all the feature turned on. Their recommended hardware is dual-core with Vista (and I wouldn't be surprised if their demo machine ran something larger).

And, while I am impressed with Crysis, I've seen better physics demos and better graphics demos (not in a game, just on their own). Crysis is good, but it could be even faster and more stable if they had more "clocks".

As far as "just adding a second GPU", that's an expensive solution. If the average consumer could choose between a second GPU at $500 or a PPU for $250, the choice is clear. Even better if they could pay $100 extra and purchase a video card with an extra PPU chip on it.
Posted By: Stansmedia

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 07/15/06 19:57

This is kinda weird. A few weeks ago i was thinking about a card or chip that could be dedicated for physics... but then i thought.. that meant people would have to go out and buy more crap for there computers just for physics. I then concluded that it would be a stupid idea. But low and behold.
Posted By: lostclimate

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 08/05/06 14:48

well, back on topic, i really dont think that we need it supported in 3dgs, or at least nort for a long time, reason being that, as already stated, its basically going to be for hard core gamers. How many AAA titles does 3dgs have yet, and not to put 3dgs down but there are just certain limits in other areas, that just makes it so that we dont need great physicss, i could c if it was like the doom3 engine, were graphics was great, but the fact is that with the lack of other incredibly great stuff, hard core gamers probably wont buy many games with 3dgs, and it wont be a selling point for our casual audience (not saying that we cant make top of the line games, its just not going to happen frequently at all)
Posted By: Doug

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 08/07/06 19:05

Hardware support is only for hardcore right now, but that may change soon. If the upcoming DX10 video cards support it, then all the Vista gamers will have it (DX10 games will require new video cards).

Again, lots of *ifs*. But it is a good idea to watch this just in case.
Posted By: teromous

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 09/04/06 12:10

I think that it will catch on...

ftp://videos%40ageia%2Ecom:goodstuff@66.220.3.57/cellfactor2_hd.zip

^ This is an in-game video of Cellfactor. It shows how the game will run in multiplayer on a capture the flag mission, using ageia/PhysX.
Posted By: Matt_Coles

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 11/18/06 05:07

The Geforce 8800 gts and gtx are now capable of physics processing as well as the radeon 1950xtx on crossfire.
Physics has had a major leap in the past few months and we need to catch up.
Posted By: Ayrus

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 11/18/06 10:06

Troublemaker just in tools about the ageia physix sdk being free for commercial and non-commercial use.
The Thread: http://www.coniserver.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/706449/Main/706436/#Post706449

The Link:
http://www.devmaster.net/

Regards,
Ayrus
Posted By: Matt_Coles

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 11/19/06 02:47

From http://www.ageia.com/developers/index.htmlin why ageia?:

The AGEIA PhysX SDK is free for non-commercial use. Standard pricing for commercial use is $50,000/title/platform. Licensed developers who implement PhysX accelerator support in their PC title are not required to pay this fee.

That means we don't have to pay the fee unless we actually finish making a commercial game and start to sell it.
Posted By: Dyc

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 11/19/06 08:20

Knowledge Base
Developer Knowledge Base > Public >
How do I become a licensed developer and what are the licensing terms?
Costs
At present, the following two options are all that are available. We will likely never provide any sort of royalty-based license. Open-source usage is limited only to the most middleware-friendly license model--in other words, we retain full ownership and rights to our own IP, and what you ship of ours will still be specified by contract.
Free:
• Commercial & non-commercial use on PC
o Must keep registration information currect
o Must agree to the EULA at the time of download (pops up, but is copied below)
o Available for Windows & Linux (soon)
o No PhysX HW support requirement
• PS3 platform (through Sony pre-purchase)
• All platforms through some of our middleware partnerships, such as UE3, Gamebryo 2.2, and others
$50k per platform:
• Xbox 360
• Fee may be waived at our discretion for multi-platform developers providing PC HW support
• Fee may be waived at our discretion for some Tools & Middleware providers
Posted By: Matt_Coles

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 11/19/06 21:36

All a licensed developer is is someone that has registered in their forums and granted access to the sdk. It's not that hard
Posted By: Doug

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 11/20/06 18:13

Well that is a big change.

I'd want to have somebody with better legal knowledge look this over but *if* it is truely free to use on Windows PCs it is worth looking into.
Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 11/20/06 21:41

Not sure, but wouldn't Conitec be a middleware client in this case? When I read correctly currently only middleware clients they're having a deal with do not have to pay a fee, right? Others seem to pay $50k ...

Cheers
Posted By: Nowherebrain

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 11/20/06 22:04

I belive that would be the publisher, as they are making the profit off of the engine. In questionable circumstances I always(try) to take the high road..and ageia doesn't have a large enough user base to be a mainstay right now.(physics will grow, in implementation of course).MHO
Posted By: Doug

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 11/21/06 20:14

Ageia is grower much faster then I expected. You can find PhysX support in many games on the market right now.

You are most likely right, however, Conitec needs to talk to them about becoming one of their clients before we could release 3DGameStudio/PhysX support. But you could probably use PhysX with 3DGS right now as a 3rd party DLL.
Posted By: Nowherebrain

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 11/22/06 03:53

That is basically what I mean..they are growing(already large), but they will not allways have this monopoly..so to speak. This and the thought of paying huge fee's for an indie game makes me cry...boo hoo(actually I am not even interested in them)..blahblahblah
Posted By: Matt_Coles

Re: optional physics more better "ageia" - 11/22/06 08:30

I'd like to hear ageia's answer about becoming a client.
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