3D Coat v3 :

Well after following some tutorials, playing with voxel scultping a lot, with retopology, normal map baking, and texture painting (diffuse,normal or specular) ,
I see the big power of the tool


- You can paint diffuse, normal , and specular at same time,
(i use a pressure tablet), so you can draw by pressure less or more depth on the normal map for example : This way you can add little details directly in the low poly model, without having to scultp them in 3D in the hight poly version

- you can draw in the 3D view on the low poly model directly in the normal map , this way you can add details incredibly faster than scultping them [/b]

- When painting in 3D View on the low poly model or on texture editor, you can put normal map to 0% , and specular to 0% if you want, this way you wont paint normal map, but only on diffuse.

- another way is to do all on the High 3D model, sculpt, paint diffuse and specular and bake all on the low poly model. But Adding details by painting on the low poly model , is a more faster workflow personnaly i find.

- Another workflow :
I imported a Low poly model, without having done any hight poly model, i drawn on normal map and diffuse directly on the 3D view, and i got a low poly normal mapped character as good
as if i had done it by using a hight poly model


- Retopology of 3D Coat is the more easy and pwoerfull i've nerver seen
You can make very very easily and incredibly fast make your low poly model[/b].

Well, i'm amazed by this tool.
3D Coat for only 150 or 160$, has Voxel Painting and have all painting/sculpting habilities on the low or high model. I'll have to make some tutorials, to show how easy powerfull it is.
With it , you can make NExt Gen things easily , fast, and have impressive results




Well i htink it's THE NEXT GEN tool for indie or low budget or hobbist people

A complete first model with 3DCoat V3.1 :
Not very detailled, for real time game using detailled environment and 512*512 texture for characters its enought.

In fact i can do models lot more faster than doing traditionnal modeling, sculpintg is lot more natural ane easier. To make the low poly , the retopolgy tools are the most easy , advanced i've used

This looks great Ratchet (except the shoes).

What base mesh did you use? Can we see a low poly mesh via retopology? How looks the normal and displacement mesh? Can we see the uv-map? Is it usable for a lowpoly character?

If you want me to make some test renders then just send me a PM.

@Frank_G :
In fact for the shoes, i did it that way cau i wanted originality and venician style, and i did all that without any concept, juts by drwaing ideas, a concept work could have done better things.
The model is lot smoothed in lot fo parts caus i increased voxle resolution in last steps: something to avoid !

Some responese :
No base mesh : i started from the sphere : in voxel you add volume totally different from traditionnal push and pull.
In fact the model is composed of different object models to have some clean cuts between them.

For the low poly character that's to you to make the retopolgy like you want , it's so so easy and powerfull retopology in Coat3D : the best i think !

For UV Map: 3D Coat, have all tools to mark easily UV Seams , unfold and retouch them if really needed, and have a preview UV window.

The normal map was great, deleted retopo, caus i done it false in some parts, but i can redo it for the torso,head, just arms to show you how it turns ?

Just from a workflow point :
1 ) Just strat from Voxels , from the sphere, because that's voxels you can add or substract volumes , and make very good hard surface (new hide tool and delete hidden voxels) !
Want a leg , just add a cylinder or two (it's like boolean add and substract you can do anything that way) than work on them
With symmetry , your characters creation goes fast.
2) increase resolution and add details as you want
3) retopology to make your low poly character : it's really a fun and easy part i like a lot (the retopo tools are so great)
4) Just tell COat3D to bake normal map
5) go in painting mode : paint diffuse directly on your 3D model or texture, you can paint the specular, and normal map if you need to add details by painting on normal texture (sometimes fro little details it can be best) !

With a pressure tablet : it's like drawing naturally , only pleasure on making a character compared to traditionnal quads modeling (extrude , cut etc ..)

The high poly model looks fine to me, but i can also do that in zBrush. But i'm really interested in the automatic retopology/low poly model, textures and uv map.

Screenshots of those would be nice

@BoH_Havoc :
I know that for very detailled scultping on very very high model Z Brush is lot more powerfull.
But for putting the model basics fast : Voxel are a faster way.
PErhaps i'll buy Zbrush with Z Spheres 2 , but it's really expensive like Hell

And personnaly , 3D Coat is sufficient for me , i don't target crazy detailled models !

For retopology , it's not automatic !
But retopology tools are so usefull and easy to use, that you make retopology very fast : the best retopo i ever seen :
Just take a look at the video to understand retopo of 3D Coat :
3D Coat retopo
(it's the old version of the tool in the video) !
UVMApping and unwrap

Some videos of voxel power :

curves

cut and clone

Or go directly to voxel tutorials : video tutorials

For painting it's like you want directly on model or texture , the best things is that you can download the tool and try it , follow the tutorials you want with the trial version to see what it really can do
But in fact you need a good month on it to really understand lot of things (type of brushes, voxel tools) and use a lot of power it can offer.

Retopology works the same in Modo and I have heard it also works that way in Silo. You simply click here and there and the system creates polygons for you, trying to align them as good as possible to the mesh in the background. This can be whatever you put into the background layer.

I also like the idea to use voxels. It has more power than sculpting texture maps or polygons because it can create new geometry wherever you want. And you dont have to care for mesh loops, edges, vertices whatever unless you start your retopology session.

But all this makes only sense for creating organic models. Architectural design works better with good old extruding, shifting, boolean, and so on.

And you can draw directly the polygons lines over your model if you prefer instead of points, odn't know if you have looke at the entire video ?

Yeah with voxel, you cand add ,substract voulmes !
You could make a weapon for example , just using primitives and using Add or Substract.
If a part have a special form ,just draw it, it will be filled with voxels !
But the other tool is indeed the table pressure, you go lot more faster on menus and lot more precise in sculpting.
The exception , is that model was made during my holidays , and i had only the mouse where i was.
It took lot more time and patience.

Well i'll try to make retopo tonigh , not entire, just main parts to show how normal map turns.
It's a character, not planned for a game or anything,if i finish all retopo, i'll give it to community

This is a great idea. If you need any help for texturing or exporting to other formats then I am happy to help.

In fact i'll do really basic texturing and specular, so if you want to make great textures i'll give it to you in obj format with textures (diff,spec ,normal) in tga format.
What tool will you use to paint ? and will you paint specular also ?

The only problem is that Coat 3D seems to invert the normal map. Instead of volumes it renders holes in XnormalMap for example !

Another great thing is that 3D Coat have an option to make a seamless texture at opening, you can, paint normal , specular and color, really fast to make a floor with rocks !
For your game packs you could make floors also like in Oblivion or Follout 3 , good ones with normal maps !
Even Ogre 3D will support normal maps on terrain system , it's already working !

Yes. Great idea. I have to check that. But if you can achieve great quality, you can do it also and we buy it from you.

I don't think i'll do big quality, caus like i said i don't target realistic human models, i prefer bring minimum details and make fun characters.
I try to follow the Ratchet And CLanck fun and philosophie of the game

If one day i would make a quality character (complete with animations), i could sell to you , no problem !
And money is not what drives me

@Frank_G:

Yesterday i made a quick and really dirt retopology and paint in some 2 hours (glitches on normal maps on the hands and hands are really bad done).




Front and bigger view :


The Wireframe (not optimised mesh, too much vertices on boots for example) :


As asked the UV : I know it's really bad done on hands !!


A cool feature of 3D Coat : you are painting normal,spec and diff colors at seame time, it you find difficult to paint in your 3D model:
- You can paint on a map called shadowed map : it's just the realtime normal map, combined with diff ans spec on the flat UVMap.
Lot more easy to paint fine details on the plane (Same thing you can paint on normal map only, or diff or spec like all 3D similar tools).

You have a bunch of tool to draw precisely and fill an shape (drawn with by lines or cruves) on normal map or other channels : That's something really missing in Blender texture painting !




So Frank_G, the model is for community here are some points where you couldd try to contribute liek you said and if you really have some time ?

- Remove seems (from symmetry plane) , i've tried to copy and past normal map pieces and
blur it, but seems are visible ? perhaps it's impossible ?

- Invert normal map and Obj model : The normal map on 3D Coat is inverted, and normal of model object
also : if you can put them ok for exporting to A7 ? (don't know ofr normal map how to do, but i've seen an
option on 3D Coat some time ago)

- make loop cuts on the hands , to make them more closed (to carry guns or sword and shield)

- Perhaps bring details on textures and normal map : just by painting on textures if you have a 3D
Tools allowing that in real time like 3D Coat.

I can send you the half model or complete with the 3 textures.

I was not only refering to characters. Actually I was refering to your idea to create grounds, ruins, rocks, whatever.

Your progress on texturing looks very good.

No i'm really bad at texturing :D,
The character woul need more dirt, and metal things with some scratches specularity and dirt also !
for the floors the ones on Follout 3 where you see stones blocks overlapping is really great , and you really think it's models , but it's just texture and normal map on terrain !

I just said that you could make some floors packages also, specially with multitexturing tools, now it's something lot of people perhaps woud like ?

You could have World of Warcraft pack style, or a Follout 3 apocaliptyc style !

In fact there are some limits in 3D Coat not present in ZBrush :

-In 3D Coat, if you use Voxels and increase resolution one time only, it's very slow with big brushes

-Retopology on voxel model, even on low definition model, when you unwrap you can have : error message ont enought memory !
It has happend several times.
And caus i use it for doing real time models, you can't work if retopology can't unwrap, to bake normal map after.

To avoid the error you can divide your model on several parts , but when the model is in standard resolution, that is not very acceptable

Here is the simple model :


simple Retopology :


Because it happened several times, i'm somewhat confused wbout the tool.

Zbrush, is really really expensive, but with ZSpheres 2 incoming : it could be an alternative tool ?

I dont think it is that expensive. Mudbox is way more expensive with less functionality. And all the big 3d application are way more expensive. Even a 3d painting program like Bodypaint 3d is more expensive.
And I got several free upgrades now while you have to pay for Max and Maya every year.

Yesterday I got my free upgrade to ZBrush 3.5. They have some new tutorials at their zclassroom website and it looks really impressive:
http://www.pixologic.com/zclassroom/homeroom/

@Frank_G : Yeah i must think of that free updates indeed

3D Coat and Voxels are great, normal works well and retopo tools are the best.Like a user said , every tool has it's own problems :
Zbrush can only do quads in retopo, and it has not all retopo tools of 3D Coat, and Zbrush baking can produce artifacts on normal maps also.

So there is no absolute tool

For Zbrush, i will try the demo when Zsphere 2 will be released, to see if it suits my workflow : 3D models for realtime !


Yeah Zbrush 3.5 is great, so i post here some cool 3D Coat Videos :
muscle tool
wrap tool

Better Hard Surface than Zbrush ??
Voxel Tree

A cool feature :
Voxel sketching

As Machinery_Frank said: every good modeling program is expensive - have a look at Cinema 4D - but it´s great!

But i still don´t know which is the best character modeling program is^^!?

Depends on what method for modeling you use.
-If you use old mdethods :
Extrude, loop cut etc ... Silo, Modo, Blender and lot of programs are ok.
-If you sculpt than retopology to make the low model and normal maps : Zbrush , 3D Coat, Blender are the ones i've tried and are ok !
For Mudbox,Modo,etc ... i don't know for them in that parts.


There are generic character makers tools like poser, but i find them really generic in terms or results, depends on what design and game you target !

If you plan to make really personnal characters, humanoids , creatures or mechanical , the best modeler is YOU : ) !!

For levels etc. I am using Cinema 4D - it great for none organic models

I don´t like blender, ZBrush is too expensive at the time - i don´t want too pay again so much money

What does 3D coat costs?

I got it for 160$ before price increase, now you'll have to pay more, but for the moment it cost less than half price of Zbrush.
So if you really plan to sculpt in 3D, go for it , it is really advanced with lot of options to sculpt, and paint.
And sculpting Voxels in 3D Coat are amazing as good as Zbrush ZSphere 2 !

Just check some Voxel tutorials , to have a nidae of what can be done and if it suits your needs ?
Voxel tuts

I really like it - especially the clothes - can i export them? - and can i animate with this tool and export those animating Scenes?

No, this is no animation software.

The best modelling tool would be a software made from the best components of the following tools:

- polygon modelling like in Modo
- rendering and preview renderer like in Modo
- animation like in Maya
- material editing like in Lightwave
- sculpting like in a mixture of ZBrush / 3dcoat
- 3d-painting with layers and tools like in Bodypaint3d

Maybe Lightwave Core will become something like that in the future (they are building a complete new 3d application currently).

@Frank_G :
You put Bodypaintg in list, but 3D Coat have already layers and ability to paint and draw on normal map, texture or spec or all at same time.
I think 3D Coat already do the job, perhaps bodypaint have some better things ?

In fact depend on your project and what you have to modelise; for example this great model have been done in a 3D program for the basic form ,and all 3D refining, painting, normal map have been done under Zbrush !

Zbrush super héro

Some times you must mix tools, i don't think you'll find a single tools doing all things.
It's perhaps better to have sepcialised tools with lot of options and functionnalities ?

Yes I know. But can you use all the tools you know from 2d software like copy stamp, sharpen, soften, smudge, highlight, darken and so on? Especially the copy stamp is very important to repair uv-edges.
If yes, then forget about Bodypaint 3d

hi,


the Blender guys think about including Voxel Sculpting too!

http://www.blendernation.com/blender-voxel-sculpting/

greetings,
gri

@Frank_G: Yeah , nothing can really replace a good 2D tool sometimes.

@gri:
But it's strange how they display voxels; but it's just a starting point.
What Blender lakcs a lot is drawing tools and layers in texture paint mode: lines , cuves , 2D forms etc ...
but it's already an awesome multipurpose tool with impressive features (nodes etc ... ):
-Hard surface modeling
-Sculpting
-animation
-retopology
-rendering

Let's wait

i found out that Cinema 4D also has clothes, so it´s great - never used it before^^ - and i can even animate! - but it´s very much poly eating^^

Can you made a complex normal map for a low poly model using the voxel feature that export in and using it in GS?

In fact you can import a low poly model and use traditionnal subdivision tools and traditionnal sculpting ones (like Zbrush).
After that you can bake normal and paint on textures or 3D model.

For Voxels, you must start from voxels, than do retopo or import a low poly for retopo.

Well 3D Coat is so easy , and retopo so powerfull, it's very fast to do a hig model in Voxels , and retopology it.
Baking normal map is pressing one button in the proper menu.
After that you can paint freely on the 3D model or ot's textures.

Well Zbrush allow to do incredible things, very detailled to high level very fast : Big tool indeed !

What misses a lot is a real retopology tool with features like in 3D Coat.
Drawing point by point in Z brush is too slow.
In 3D Coat , you can really draw the polygons or use shortcuts like Quads (you define two points to add a quad from an edge).

Also a big missing feature is UV ; there is no real UV
tool on Zbrush.
I own Zbrush : it's an unbeatten sculpting tool , able to do hard edges now , and can be used for architecture modeling with the new projection tool.

BUT :
In fact 3DCoat is a lot more complete solution where you can :
-Make the high deatilled model on Voxels
-Retopology (best tools for retopo that exists)
-Make UV (Just mark seems and press unwrap at the end)
-Bake normal map (one button to push)
-paint col,spec and normal on 3D Low poly model or in it's textures.

It's a complete Toolset,very easy to use, very powerfull to produce from your idea to the final low poly model.

It don't have Zbrush power or as such advanced details like micro details etc ... but you can already produce very detailled things wihtout workflow problem : and using just one software : 3D Coat

Caus of Zbrush lacks a lot UVMapping and a better Retopology : i regret a little to have bought it (even if it is great) !

3D Coat allow me to stay in the same software from high model sculping to final low poly model painting !

I can only encourage anyone going to 3D normal maps to really try it

It's my personnal opinion and experimentation.
That's tools i've used in real next gen character making workflow. Perhaps some people would like to reotopo with limited tools on Zbrush, export low model , make UV on a modeler, re import it on Zbrush to generate the normal map ??

i just sculpt in zbrush export the high res into blender, and use its retopo tools that i like even better than 3d coat's, uv map and bake the normal/ambient maps in there.

If you want to go forth and back between ZBrush and other applications then there is an amazing tool called GoZ. You can work simultanously in both apps, so you have all the uv-mapping, polygon-modelling, re-topology of your choice.
No export nor import, it is just like you are working in one app:

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=071414

Currently it works with Maya, Cinema4D and Modo (with many other applications soon to come). And since Modo is the best polygon modeler with great re-topology and best uv-tools at all, I am sure the best combination is Modo / ZBrush (you will see them both in the end of the video).

Artists all over the world were excited like crazy as they saw this video (except Max users, because they still have to wait).

@lostclimate:
I'm not sure you will be able to import millions polygons in Blender , specially if you put some micro details : and retopo should be very slow if your Zbrush model is really high detailled ?
(I'll give it a try to test how far it can goes, and how many polys Blender can handel and stay
fluid to work)
- Blender Baking is not the best perhaps for the normal map seems, i've got visible in parts other than symmetry (things i don't have in Coat 3D).


@Frank_G:
OK , it sounds great indeed !
If they put open source their SDK perhaps Blender Devs could make it also ?
Once time again , it's for expensive tools : Modo, Maya, C4D.
not free oness, or low budget

Never tried Modo, but Coat3D have also very powerfull retopo , and great UV mapping tools.
And with Coat 3D you really stay on one application for the entire process : High model sculpting to final low poly model.
Zbrush guys coould make better retoplology or UV tools ???
Why they don't want ?

For simple game making, i don't target realistic style and non very detailled 3D high models so 3D Coat gives me all tools i need and it's enough : I'm not creating realistic and AAA things !
(Just bought two sculpting apps: I won't buy anyhting 3D before a year or more !)

Not millions, with HD sculpting it can have billions. No polygon modeller can handle this. The best way is to bake it in ZBrush.

I have no idea of the features of ZB4. So I cannot tell you if they make more UV-options. But this never has been a deal breaker for the big studios. Most gamedev studios create a lowpoly mesh in a polygon modeler with uv-maps and transfer it to ZBrush for sculpting.
And this works perfectly now with GoZ.

But to be honest, I dont see your problem. You can make good uv-maps in Blender or in 3d-Coat. You dont need this feature badly.

Why they do not support free tools? The reason is very simple: They deal like a commercial company. If most of their (paying and registered) customers are using Maya, then they start with Maya. If the SDK of Maya, Modo and C4D is easy to support then they will do this first and more applications will follow (they said, that there will be more apps later. But I expect that Max has more priority than Blender).

Most gamedev studios create a lowpoly mesh in a polygon modeler with uv-maps and transfer it to ZBrush for sculpting.
And this works perfectly now with GoZ.

@Frank_G:
I'm really not sure it's the more used way !
Look at UT3 models: they start from high model , and make low poly after : you have the bets results like that.
You make the cage fro mthe high polygon.

Starting from low poly is good when you want to add surface details only.

Well i really prefer a lot ot be totally free in terms of creation :
Create hight model from ground , in 3D Coat add freely any 3D parts models in Voxel Trre( sort of 3D layers) , add details to them as i want.
Once High 3D model is done, ok : make retopo to have a very precise low poly model, to bake noral map.
With retopo you avoid lot of normal map seems ?

OR perhaps i'm wrong, and i've not see enought workflow from other people ?
But i'm not sure you can do as good results starting from low poly version ?

In fact if you look at forums on Polycount, game artisans or other forums, look at Next Gen characters thread work in progress (Dominance War 4 thread or any otehr challenge) :
you'll see that people sculpt high poly version, than make low poly version at the end !
That's today workflow i think ! (perhaps i'm wrong ??)

Yes. I know that many people work like you told. But then you have to export your retopology mesh at the end, create a good uv and bake textures after that. It will work fine with GoZ.
It is not a problem to switch to another app for that. We will not lose much time that way. We lose much more time reading and writing posts in the forums

@FRank_G :
We will not lose much time that way.
I hope.
But it won't be a solution in my case, caus i can't buyy another very expensive 3D tool.
And it won't solve retopology : Goz just allow
- Auto transfert of low polygon form modeler to Zbrush
- And inverse low poly and textures to the modeler
It's not retopology solution.

I should ask skilled artists doing real time characters on contests , what retopology tool or solution they use ???


We lose much more time reading and writing posts in the forums
That's right

But it really depends on when to use and when not use retopology: If you use the same base mesh for different variations of characters then a low poly base mesh (and no retopology) will save time and might be better to use the same rig and animation set.

Retopology makes only sense if you create something completely new from scratch. And the tool does not matter. You can make it in Modo, 3dcoat or ZBrush. The result matters.

And keep in mind: only klicking here and there will not make you an efficient topology. You still have to care about polygon loops, bridges and other low poly techniques to have an efficient mesh.

@Frank_G:
Yeah you are right !
I didn't take account the time production side
If you want to go from a base mesh and just vary surface to make different characters : that's another solution.

Indeed when retopology you must keep a good polygons flow.
It's lot more easier to make low polygon by retopo than from scratch.

For Zbrush i found that :
decimation master plugin

It can be a solution to bring down the very high model or micro detail mesh to a high detail that can be loaded on your modeler where you will retopo.
For retopo you don't need at all the very detailled model !

Another soluton used by this great artist
Bishop tutorial
On Zbrush you can subdivide you model, and you can at any moment subdivide back.
So he just subdivide back the mesh to a lower resolution to be able to import it on a modeler.

Ok i stop for now
It was just me seraching how could i do retopo easily from Zbrush models (i think i'll do like iin Bishop tutorial).

But i persist
caus in 3D Coat , Voxel are vey different from Zbrush sudbivisons.

Voxel allow to really add or substract volumes lmike you want (pen, brushes, shapes ,objects etc ...)
You are lot more free, if you started with a base from, you can end with somehting totally different without having to come back


I know Zspheres 2 are a lot smiliar !

For the moment 3D Coat allow To do Retopo,UV and bake normal so easily and fast and with all in one :
I stay with it , sure.

For Zbrush, i'll have to study the best easy workflow i can find (i own Silo and Blender for Retopo and UV) !

Yeah 3D Coat rellay rocks a lot and for that prices, anyone doing next gen , can buy it , without any regret : it's a complete solution.

Not for incredible details and power of Zbrush , but you can already do something really detailled.
And for micro details if you really need them :
Zbrush has power to make them in polygons.
With 3D Coat : you can paint them on normal map !