LawMaker engine
Posted By: DEX
LawMaker engine - 03/20/07 22:04
I finally started to learn a little about LawMaker engine as I purchased indie about 4 months ago, and I can tell you that I regret that I lost so much time to learn it better.
It is simply fantastic!!!
I read just their manuals from WIKI page and sudenly I felt that I worked with it for months. Everything is so clear and well organized, starting from creating Sollution file and adding resources to your project.
LM consist of 2 folders, one for keeping all your assets and second for keeping compiled stuff. So everything you load into your level from assets folder and compile it, its automatically goes into second, ready-to-go folder. Everything is well organized and you can find assets in a second.
If you are planing to make FPS, there is already player script completely done, together with superb AI with almost no programming required.
Exporters for almost all "big" 3D packages ensures us very easy workflow.
Engine is very fast, and shadowing system is fantastic.
Working with Editor is very easy and you will mastered it in short time.
As soon as I learn something more I will write here.
Its time to look some coding tutorials
Posted By: sueds
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/20/07 23:04
how much is it ?
http://www.darkroomstudios.com/content/view/69/180/Scroll it a bit down. There are prizes for every taste available.
Posted By: ello
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/21/07 18:53
frank, i'd love to see something you did with lawmaker. if thats possible. something that shows a little of lawmaker. not what they show but what YOU are able to do with it. just out of curiosity
Posted By: broozar
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/21/07 19:28
i wanna see some animated shadows! some lightsources passing by a group of columns...
Posted By: fastlane69
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/21/07 19:58
I wanna see it last longer than a year!
It seems that every year we see new engines come up, get great reviews, and then vanish into the mists of time. Kinda hard to get excited over a new engine when you see this happening over and over and over and over again.
Posted By: D3D
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/21/07 20:21
They have few media showing somewhat lawmaker can do:
LawMaker Engine Tech Media. Still, no trial available.
Posted By: DEX
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/21/07 21:29
I think that this engine will not be forgoten because it is really great.
And yes moving shadows are posible as you move light around, really impresive.
I made a little room last year in Lawmaker (just in 2 hours with a few brushes caved into the world). It showcases our sci-fi texture set that you can buy at Dexsoft
Here are 2 fotos:
I applied a specular normalmap shader and a few real-time lights at this scene. You will see that the columns are casting more than one shadow.
You can tell every face of the brushes/blocks-geometry if it should react to dynamic lights and if it should cast shadows. So you can optimize your level very good.
Besides that you can define regions and portals for optimized scene-management.
I am currently working on a medieval / fantasy texture-set with normal-, height-, color- and specular-maps. I plan to create a little Oblivion-like demo to showcase this new package. I will realize this at first in Lawmaker.
Then you can see it in action.
I would like to make a similar demo in A6 as well but I need a normalmap shader with specularity (controlled through alpha channel) and working dynamic lights with a working light management and working dynamic shadows.
Unfortunately this is currently not available.
But maybe I make an additional Beyond-Virtual-Demo. This goes very fast. I just have to load my model-based level in their tool-set. They can even read Lightwave models. Dynamic lights are working and the light-management works also quite good. The shaders are a bit old but working in Beyond Virtual.
Posted By: Doug
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/21/07 23:54
Quote:
how much is it ?
$1499.00 (USD)
Quote:
Quote:
how much is it ?
$1499.00 (USD)
You can even grab it for 149,99 USD.
The 1499,- USD price is with better support and for commercial games.
http://www.darkroomstudios.com/content/view/69/180/
Posted By: Damocles
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/22/07 00:12
Now, how is this engine related to other gametype, apart from FPS?
Is there sufficient support / function for 2D Grafix?
Or is this mainly aimed at first person 3D games.
They have a binding for a GUI system as well as for LUA, ODE, OpenAL.
But at the end I am not sure how good you can make a flight-simulation, a shooter or a racing game.
I think the current set is aimed towards shooters. They have AI, pathfinding and other functions implemented that can be used best with shooter-type of games. May be role-playing games or even FPS-Adventures would be a good possibility.
Besides that they provided a little racing demo. So it might be possible.
The goal of the Lawmaker-team is to create a next-gen engine and to deliver the best indie tool available. They have a quite big team working on it and they seem to love Doom3 and Half-Life2. They often compare their engine and tool-set with the tools from Doom3 and HL2 (and both are FPS-engines).
Their indoor-editor is a mixture of the current Doom3-Editor and a little bit like WED. WED is more easy to learn but the Doom3-Editor and the Lawmaker editor is faster (in terms of work-flow) and more efficient at the end.
CSG-cuts are no problems for those editors. It is even the opposite in the Lawmaker tool. You don't create a hollow block like in WED. You cut the block from the solid world. So there are no walls at the beginning just a hollow space covered by solid mass (after you made your first csg subtract).
And you will cut (subtract) all the next rooms from the solid mass that is around you.
This works very fast at the beginning. There are no un-needed walls.
But after that you can add brushes as well and create walls, block, cylinders, whatever.
Posted By: William
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/22/07 01:28
Does it's editor allow the import of scenes from programs like Max or Maya(FBX, ect.)?
Yes. They have an import plug-in for Max, though Max is an expensive software. Because of that hey also support the ASE format (to import static meshes), also primarily an simple ASCII Max Format, but it can be produced by other modelling tools as well.
Besides that you can also use the OBJ (wavefront object) format to import static meshes.
For animations they use the Max plug-in or the CAL3D format. That can be created with tools like Blender and Milkshape. CAL3D is an open-sorce format very similar to FBX.
Posted By: AlbertoT
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/23/07 22:55
DEX and Frank_g
I myself purchased the Indie version some monthes ago , even though I have not yet used it on extensive basis
No doubt that the lever editor is great
However I am more programming that artistic oriented
Well ,I must say that at a first glance I have been a little disappointed
It seems that Lawmaker engine has been created for the Lawmaker game consequently it is lacking that degree of abstraction that from my point of view is a key issue for a game engine
In other words Lawmake supplies a deluge of commands most of them to implement simple function which any programmer should be able to make by himself but you wonder wether you can actually make any kind of game without having an headache
Something similar to Torque , I mean, which up to a certain extent is better than 3dgs, provide you make an fps, nothing else
This is just my gut feeling, no actual experience , as I said , what about your opinion ?
Posted By: Gamesaint762
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/24/07 00:05
Granted no game engine is perfect but saying that you can only make an FPS with Torque is kinda silly. One game that you should look at is DreamLords. I am no Coder but you can create whatever you want with any game engine as long as the engine supports what you want to do. I have seen many games made with Torque that were not a FPS. The same thing is true for Gstudio, however it lacks alot of the features that most of Today's engines have. Law Maker, seems to be very locked into only things that pertained to that game itself. If I were a coder I would create my own engine and it would have all the things in it that all of the engines I have used did not. However Im sure that all the developers thought the same way. Just my two cents worth, GS out.
Posted By: AlbertoT
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/24/07 00:28
Quote:
I am no Coder but you can create whatever you want with any game engine
Well I am a low level coder but it is evident that you are not a coder at all
Of course you can create any any kind of game using Torque but for some kind of games it is a pain being geared towards multyplayer FPS
Quote:
If I were a coder I would create my own engine Quote:
you have no idea how complex a modern game engine is
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/24/07 04:03
I'm quite sure it's possible to make a lot of different types of games with the Lawmaker engine, because even though it may seem more suited for fps games, there's really no actual limitation which would prevent one from programming/building a RPG, a casual game or whatever with it. (not sure about 2D qualities though) Same goes for Torque and same goes for 3dgs... Personally I don't really like programming with the Torque engine nor Lawmaker engine, but that's moreso because I'm spoiled with the ease of 3dgs's c-script.
Cheers
Posted By: AlbertoT
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/24/07 08:23
Once agaim, one thing is claiming " It is possible" an other thing "It is easy"
3DGS architecture ( not the c-script only) is straghtforward , in my opinion, because it has been designed from the very begininng having in mind a multu purpose engine for a vast audience of serious hobbyest and semi professional programmers
Different story for Torque
That said, Lawmaker seem really great
Posted By: XNASorcerer
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/24/07 14:33
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/24/07 14:44
Quote:
Of course you can create any any kind of game using Torque but for some kind of games it is a pain being geared towards multyplayer FPS
Why would that be if the programming language and editor tools do not limit you to make different kinds of games? What kind of game would be more difficult to make with Torque then? People have already created RTS, flightsims, war sims, turn based games, FPS and 3rd PS games and even casual games. Well, I haven't seen much Lawmaker or Beyond Virtual games that were no FPS games indeed, but there are some. Hence my claim that 'it is possible'. If you want to find out how hard it is, you'd have to try it out for yourself,
Cheers
Posted By: XNASorcerer
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/24/07 14:46
Yes. And FREE Dowloadable LawMaker Evaluation Kit coming Soon!
Posted By: AlbertoT
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/24/07 15:34
Quote:
[
Why would that be if the programming language and editor tools do not limit you to make different kinds of games? What kind of game would be more difficult to make with Torque then?
It dipends on the type of commands
A multi purpose engine supplies a limited nummber but highly abstracted
list of commands the opposite for a taylor made engine
Go through torque and 3dgs command list, you will see the difference yourself
Anyway it is not my personal opinion only
Even Torque associates and end users admit that you can design every kind of game , provide you are prepared :
To tweak the engine
WOW !!! , they try to miminimize (we give you the source, arent' you happy ?) but it is a nonsense
A game engine for hobbyest \ semi professional programmers must be a black box
It make no sense to have to put your hands on a 1000000 lines complex program
My concern about Lawmaker is the same
As far as B.V. is concerned never used it , but yes the impressive 700 ++ general purpose commands should make it a true and complete multi purpose engine, I suppose
Posted By: capanno
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/24/07 21:29
Quote:
...but that's moreso because I'm spoiled with the ease of 3dgs's c-script.
Im with you on that!
Im a little concerned that lawmaker is a bit geared towards FPS games, although it seems like a good engine. Ill be impressed when they show a demo of a rts or racing game. The editor undoubtedly looks great, although the version I used when I used the evaluation was still buggy.
An engine Im really excited about is unigine. Over the past couple of months its been growing and becoming an insanely good engine. I hope to evaluate it soon, but I have to learn c++ first. 
www.unigine.com
Posted By: Hellcrypt
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/24/07 21:49
Stop complaining,
Lawmaker is not made for only FPS games, what the heck ever gave you that idea? Sure some functions are used for FPS, but other classes has some use of. This is not for newbie programmers, there are a lot of classes and functions, but once you get the hang of it, you can create anything you need.
Posted By: AlbertoT
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/24/07 21:56
Does it allow verices manipulation ?
Posted By: Gamesaint762
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/24/07 23:23
I understand that game engines are created by coders. I also understand that they can only support functions, models and physics that a programmer includes in that engine. So AlbertoT it is in fact silly to say that your understanding is so much more vast than mine because if it were you wouldnt be making these statements. Seems to me that a programmer could figure it out and make whatever he wanted. It might be hard to overcome an engine that is geared toward an FPS genre but what about game design isnt hard? Theres so much work involved its not even funny. Like I said before, look at what others have done and you can see its possible. I guess the real question is are you gonna figure it out or you gonna gripe about how every engine isnt good and cant do this and that... Be like Nike, Just Do It! GS out.
Posted By: AlbertoT
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/24/07 23:48
Quote:
might be hard to overcome an engine that is geared toward an FPS genre but what about game design isnt hard? Theres so much work involved its not even funny. .
Well a little bit masochistic approch , in my opinion, but " De gustibus.."
Posted By: Pappenheimer
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/25/07 10:36
Quote:
one thing is claiming " It is possible" an other thing "It is easy"
Gamesaint, you didn't get the main point of Alberto.
He mentioned the difference of the ease to programm an fps or other sort of games. And the ease of use often indeed makes the difference of possible or not possible, because its a matter development time, and its the difference of a programmer's skills, and that seems to be a thing that you don't see. The skills of the programmers are very different, and the way of programming of different programming languages are very different, too.
I'm not a programmer, but every time our team is working on the code, I'm watching what the programmer is doing, we are discussing what we need, which way to achieve it is the best, and meets best with further features which we want to implement later. And, when I look at what he is coding, I see parts of c-script that are easy to write and even me, I can modify them, other parts are too complex that I could understand it. But, we use the SDK too, so then, when I look at his programmings in C++ - there is almost nothing that I can understand.
Let's refer to the development time: within my team we have estimated the time of 8 hours in a month, in the beginning we had 8 hours a week. I hope you understand that such a short time needs the ease to use to be fast enough to even consider to start a game development!
- easy to use - needs less time -> is a way for developers to make a game in their spare time.
- difficult to use - needs more time -> is no way for the most developers in their spare time.
Posted By: AlbertoT
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/25/07 11:03
I see parts of c-script that are easy to write and even me, I can modify them, other parts are too complex that I could understand it. But, we use the SDK too, so then, when I look at his programmings in C++ - there is almost nothing that I can understand.
This is the key point
In a professional software house some people are pure coders working on the SDK some others focus on the gameplay
Nowadays it makes non sense ,in my opinion, to starte from the scratch
( direct x \ opengl) but I am also scared of a game engine which makes to much for me
If a game engine supplies a function for examaple
AttachWeaponTo()
I am not happy
I prefer a game engine enabling vertices manipulation
If so,I am sure I can attach everything, everywhere
Normaly these kind of engines are the ones which originally have been developed for a specific commercial game ( Torque for example ) for the reason explained by PapperHeimer
That's said , I am still very interested in LawMaker, it looks really great
Posted By: Hellcrypt
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/25/07 14:22
First of all Alberto you are not a programmer so I don't take lightly that you are putting the lawengine down just because you don't understand the code. If such function as "AttachWeaponTo()" existed, there are modifiers you can call to modify it to attach it to anywhere you want with vertex. You should be lucky such functions even exist in the first place, in 3dgs you have to code all of this yourself. The Lawmaker code also does provide functions to support melee weapons as well. Only a few functions are specific to FPS genre upon hundreds of them. Such large SDK is truly a wonder to have and for anyone serious enough to take on the learning curve, it's awsome!
Posted By: AlbertoT
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/25/07 16:00
If you claim that LawMaker is a multipurpose engine which supplies just a few FSP oriented classes, that's fine
Generally speaking I remain however of my opinion
I dont think it is common practice for commercial software houses to adapt an existing FPS engine to develop an RPG game or a racing game
Normally they prrefer either to use a similar engine or to develop a brand new one
There is a reason, I suppose, that a programmer should know
This is particulary true for an audience of hobbyest or semi professional game programmers
Anyway I was talking about Torque rather than LawMaker which I have no experience of
It is a matter of fact that it is hard ( onece again , not impossible ) to use this excellent engine for anything else but a FPS game
This is the opinion of hundred developers, not only mine
I am just concern to come across the same problems with LawMaker
Last , In my opinion , such " Top down " behaviour is neither useful nor intelligent
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/25/07 21:34
Quote:
It is a matter of fact that it is hard ( onece again , not impossible ) to use this excellent engine for anything else but a FPS game
I still don't quite get your reasoning on this. Developing a RPG needs several very similar functions as a FPS would need, infact I'm pretty sure the FPS AI might do pretty okey for a RPG too, especially since melee attacks are possible to implement into the AI. I'd say, change the camera height and angle and you're practically developing a different genre of games. That's off course 3 steps in a nutshell, since you'd need to add movement by mouse and point-and-click actions, but I don't see why this should be such a hard task. It just takes some more time in my humble opinion..
Quote:
This is the opinion of hundred developers, not only mine
...
Cheers
Posted By: AlbertoT
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/30/07 20:56
Dont you get the point yet ?
Well, Capanno said that he is waiting for a racing game or an RPG game in LawMaker
No need to wait so long
Let's make the following exercise
Take some AUM'S example and try to develop them in Torque
Again I have no experience at all with LawMkaer, I was not ironic in my previous post, maybe Hellcrypt is really right
Well I tried to develop for example an RPG movement
The player follows the mouse regardless of the camera position and orientation
In 3dgs takes just a few line code
The same even using supposed toy_like game engines such as Blitz3D
Well I found out with dismay that with the AAA torque game engine ( again I am not ironic) it is not so easy
Of course you can , a Torquer was so kind to address me to some resources
but you must tweak the engine
Again this is a non non sense for an audience of hobbyest game programmers
This is at least my limited experience with game engines
It is not definitly true, in my opinion, that all the engines are more or less the same stuff
Moreover I accept that you are more keen about the level editor, being, I suppose, an artistic oriented guy
The LawMaker level editor is fantastic, no point
However the level editor is an option
A game engine must be evaluated, in my opinion, mainly for its software architecture
Posted By: TheExpert
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/30/07 21:55
They should do like BV engine, Torque engine , A6 and put a demo version,
that way , you could really see what you can do and how wthe engine handle
frame rate with a 3D world.
Posted By: Hellcrypt
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/30/07 22:00
They have an Eval version, and they do have a demo you can play around in TheExpert.
Just wait a few weeks. They are re-working all documentations. The complete team is working on documentation right now. So I am quite sure it will become more clear after it.
Right after writing the docs they plan to add fbx-support.
Posted By: AlbertoT
Re: LawMaker engine - 03/30/07 23:27
PheMox
Look on GameDev.net - alternative libraries
TMichael's opinion about Torque