Posted By: Kinji_2007
Any Muslims here? - 04/07/07 20:41
Your personal thoughts on Jesus would be nice. I know what the Quran says.. thus the keyword "personal". What do you think about Him?
Any Muslims here?
Posted By: Hellcrypt
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/09/07 19:48
Cool guy, he probably was real. But some guys could have just "Exagerated" the story.
I am not a devout Muslim, I just believe in one god and to be friendly to everyone.
I am not a devout Muslim, I just believe in one god and to be friendly to everyone.
Posted By: xXxGuitar511
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/10/07 06:38
"He did exist, but are the stories about him true?"
Thats the question. There WAS a jesus, but was any of the story true?
Thats the question. There WAS a jesus, but was any of the story true?
Posted By: mnemoniq
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/10/07 09:11
Hello;
I am algerien, and I pray gods 5 times per day.
there is one gods and his last Mohamed prophet. And I can assure you that all these history are true, is necessary to also believe that what has said in the qoran is true.
Sorry for my bad english.
I am algerien, and I pray gods 5 times per day.
there is one gods and his last Mohamed prophet. And I can assure you that all these history are true, is necessary to also believe that what has said in the qoran is true.
Sorry for my bad english.
Posted By: AlbertoT
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/10/07 10:11
I know that Qoran accepts Jesus as one of the prophets but I dont suppose that Qoran claims also that all the stories about Jesus are true
Otherwise Qoran should recognize Jesus as a prophet greater than Mohammed , who, as far as I know , was not supposed to make miracles
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/10/07 22:42
Quote:
I know that Qoran accepts Jesus as one of the prophets but I dont suppose that Qoran claims also that all the stories about Jesus are true
From the Koran:
Quote:
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not :-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
Koran 4:157-158
So, according to the Koran, there was no sacrifice.
Therefore, you have to work your way into heaven.
Quote:
They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous !
At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious.
For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
The Koran
Sura 19:88-92 Maryam
So, understanding these scriptures from the Koran, then you can throw out the New Testament idea that:
-------------------------------------------------
God loved the world and gave His Son for it.
-------------------------------------------------
Just toss it out. According to the Koran God has no Son and you have to work to get to heaven.
Although the bible teaches that your works are indeed just dirty filth rags to a Holy God.
It's a totally different concept of Gods personality for sure though. lol
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 00:07
I'd like to give a quote about comparing Christianity with the Islam, since there's often this 'our religion is better' kind of talk on both sides..
In fact, Western Civilization has been mostly about getting away from the draconian laws of the Tanakh (aka "Old Testament"). And, yes, fundamentalist Christians are just as dangerous as fundamentalist Muslims. One need look no further than the Holocaust, the Thirty Years' War, the Inquisition, the witch trials, the heresy trials, and the Dark Ages to see how vicious Christian fundamentalists can be. Christianity probably set back Western Civilization by at least 1500 years (think Bruno, Copernicus and Galileo for starters). And the current ignorant assaults on the teaching of evolution show just how treacherous Christian fundamentalists can be!
@Ran_Man: You don't really know if Jesus was crucified.
In fact, Western Civilization has been mostly about getting away from the draconian laws of the Tanakh (aka "Old Testament"). And, yes, fundamentalist Christians are just as dangerous as fundamentalist Muslims. One need look no further than the Holocaust, the Thirty Years' War, the Inquisition, the witch trials, the heresy trials, and the Dark Ages to see how vicious Christian fundamentalists can be. Christianity probably set back Western Civilization by at least 1500 years (think Bruno, Copernicus and Galileo for starters). And the current ignorant assaults on the teaching of evolution show just how treacherous Christian fundamentalists can be!
@Ran_Man: You don't really know if Jesus was crucified.
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 00:24
But Phemox the bible says He was crucified.
The Koran conflicts with the bible directly.
I was only quoting what the Koran says about Jesus and not trying to say my religion is better than any other.
But, saying that fundamentalist Christianity is dangerous like fundamentalist islam is, well that is nonsense.
I simply don't see thousands of armed christians killing people in the name of their God. Do you?
But, I wish not to bash Islam, but only to say what the Koran said about Jesus, because that is what was asked, right? lol
I posted it. It's just a matter of knowledge I tried to share.
The Koran conflicts with the bible directly.
I was only quoting what the Koran says about Jesus and not trying to say my religion is better than any other.
But, saying that fundamentalist Christianity is dangerous like fundamentalist islam is, well that is nonsense.
I simply don't see thousands of armed christians killing people in the name of their God. Do you?
But, I wish not to bash Islam, but only to say what the Koran said about Jesus, because that is what was asked, right? lol
I posted it. It's just a matter of knowledge I tried to share.
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 01:22
Just toss it out. According to the Koran God has no Son and you have to work to get to heaven.
This made me believe you did compare it to show Christianity is 'better'. Anyways, that's irrelevant, I was saying it's simply equal in this respect, it's was more a general statement, not meant to be personal actually.
Read the text in the Italics in my previous post again please, or are you saying thóse people were actually 'normal' Christians? In that case normal Christians are even worse.
Aaah, the good old "the bible says so" argument ... *sigh*
,
Cheers
This made me believe you did compare it to show Christianity is 'better'. Anyways, that's irrelevant, I was saying it's simply equal in this respect, it's was more a general statement, not meant to be personal actually.
Quote:
But, saying that fundamentalist Christianity is dangerous like fundamentalist islam is, well that is nonsense.
I simply don't see thousands of armed christians killing people in the name of their God. Do you?
Read the text in the Italics in my previous post again please, or are you saying thóse people were actually 'normal' Christians? In that case normal Christians are even worse.
Quote:
But Phemox the bible says He was crucified.
Aaah, the good old "the bible says so" argument ... *sigh*
,Cheers
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 02:28
No, they were not normal and were not christians either.
First of all, every one of those instances are HISTORY.
To make a claim like that, there should be at least one recent episode, yes?
It happened 50 years ago historically, but I'd like to know what POPE declare that all Jews must die?
What pope did that? The pope <a spiritual leader> did not.
People cannot even read in those times.
We need to find a more recent example?
geez.
The fossil record is still missing --> Fish to Man, evidence.
If we all came from fish, then there is no evidence of that in the fossil record. It can still be disputed just from reasoning.
Anyways, off topic here.
Question:
Who is a Muslim here?
and
If you are here, then remember we do love you guys.
and
Please remember to not kill us okay? LOL
First of all, every one of those instances are HISTORY.
To make a claim like that, there should be at least one recent episode, yes?
Quote:
I'd the Holocaust,
It happened 50 years ago historically, but I'd like to know what POPE declare that all Jews must die?
What pope did that? The pope <a spiritual leader> did not.
Quote:
the Inquisition, the witch trials, the heresy trials, and the Dark Ages to see how vicious Christian fundamentalists can be.
People cannot even read in those times.
We need to find a more recent example?
geez.
Quote:
And the current ignorant assaults on the teaching of evolution
The fossil record is still missing --> Fish to Man, evidence.
If we all came from fish, then there is no evidence of that in the fossil record. It can still be disputed just from reasoning.
Anyways, off topic here.
Question:
Who is a Muslim here?
and
If you are here, then remember we do love you guys.
and
Please remember to not kill us okay? LOL
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 04:22
Sure, it's history, however they all claimed to be "Christians".
The pope hated homosexuals and the like back then too. The Holocaust was not just about Jews and basically it's about the support Christianity gave to it. The Christian churches weren't exactly neutral.
There is plenty of evidence, although 'fish' might be inaccurate to some extent. If you go back far enough it's probably true indeed, but there are some significantly different species in between us and the fish in our evolution, that's for certain.
Lol, afraid? There you generalize again I guess.
Cheers
Quote:
What pope did that? The pope <a spiritual leader> did not.
The pope hated homosexuals and the like back then too. The Holocaust was not just about Jews and basically it's about the support Christianity gave to it. The Christian churches weren't exactly neutral.
Quote:
The fossil record is still missing --> Fish to Man, evidence.
If we all came from fish, then there is no evidence of that in the fossil record.
There is plenty of evidence, although 'fish' might be inaccurate to some extent. If you go back far enough it's probably true indeed, but there are some significantly different species in between us and the fish in our evolution, that's for certain.
Quote:
Please remember to not kill us okay? LOL
Lol, afraid?
There you generalize again I guess. Cheers
Posted By: Matt_Aufderheide
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 10:12
Quote:
fundamentalist Christians are just as dangerous as fundamentalist Muslims. One need look no further than the Holocaust....
While I dont disagree with your main point, what the hell does the holocuast have to do with fundemantalist Christians?.. the Nazis werent fundies or even really Christian..
Posted By: Kinji_2007
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 10:15
Muslim and Christians both agree that Jesus was alive at one time. He was great, we both agree. He was born of a virgin mother, we both agree. We even agree that he performed miracles. ;-) My thought is this..
If He is so great then why would he lie? He made claims to be the Son of God. At the time some books (NT) were written, people were still alive that heard Jesus teach. If the NT was completely wrong then people would have stomped these claims right then. We cant be sure exactly WHEN each book was written but one that I am settled on is the Gospel of Matthew. It was written somewhere around 60AD. Many of the people that knew Jesus or seen Him would have surly stood up and said something to this effect, "Thats a lie, I heard Jesus teach and he never claimed to be the Son of God!". We have to assume that He DID make this claim.
As for His death... thats not even worth a debate. Checking historical records other than the Bible we can believe with no doubt that He did in fact die by roman hands.
The Muslim belief does not at all hinder our views on Jesus. It can actually help us and increase our faith when just a small amount of common sense is added.
:-D Let us rejoice! We share these beliefs..
1) Jesus was sent from God.
2) He was born of a virgin mother.
3) He performed miracles.
4) Since even the Muslims agree that he was so great then we have to assume that in NO way would he lie. He is in fact the Son of God as He claimed to be.
5) Evidense to support the FACT that He died by roman hand is far greater than proof that He didnt.
In conclusion: To the Muslims.. Wanna come to church? ;-) Jesus loves you.
Just a thought.. Islam is based on a vision. A guy meditates and gets a vision and a whole religion is born. He offers no devine insight, no miracles, nothing more than ordinary. (We're talking about Mohammad) It is hard to believe that you would follow these teachings (Quran) over the ones in the Bible if Mohammad even insisted that Jesus was so GREAT.
If He is so great then why would he lie? He made claims to be the Son of God. At the time some books (NT) were written, people were still alive that heard Jesus teach. If the NT was completely wrong then people would have stomped these claims right then. We cant be sure exactly WHEN each book was written but one that I am settled on is the Gospel of Matthew. It was written somewhere around 60AD. Many of the people that knew Jesus or seen Him would have surly stood up and said something to this effect, "Thats a lie, I heard Jesus teach and he never claimed to be the Son of God!". We have to assume that He DID make this claim.
As for His death... thats not even worth a debate. Checking historical records other than the Bible we can believe with no doubt that He did in fact die by roman hands.
The Muslim belief does not at all hinder our views on Jesus. It can actually help us and increase our faith when just a small amount of common sense is added.
:-D Let us rejoice! We share these beliefs..
1) Jesus was sent from God.
2) He was born of a virgin mother.
3) He performed miracles.
4) Since even the Muslims agree that he was so great then we have to assume that in NO way would he lie. He is in fact the Son of God as He claimed to be.
5) Evidense to support the FACT that He died by roman hand is far greater than proof that He didnt.
In conclusion: To the Muslims.. Wanna come to church? ;-) Jesus loves you.
Just a thought.. Islam is based on a vision. A guy meditates and gets a vision and a whole religion is born. He offers no devine insight, no miracles, nothing more than ordinary. (We're talking about Mohammad) It is hard to believe that you would follow these teachings (Quran) over the ones in the Bible if Mohammad even insisted that Jesus was so GREAT.
Posted By: JetpackMonkey
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 11:30
[deleted - i am just gonna stay away from this one]
Posted By: William
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 11:46
Quote:
fundamentalist Christians are just as dangerous as fundamentalist Muslims. One need look no further than the Holocaust....
I too don't remember the holocaust having anything to do with Christians causing it. Where are you coming from with this?
Quote:
Sure, it's history, however they all claimed to be "Christians".
While I cannot confirmed who claimed to be Christians in history, I can say I've seen many people claiming to be all sorts of things, in the present day. I really hope you aren't simply basing your spiritual life or understanding off of what people claim.
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 15:40
Quote:
I too don't remember the holocaust having anything to do with Christians causing it. Where are you coming from with this?
I didn't mean to say Christianity has been responsible for the Holocaust per say, that probably would be wrong, it's moreso that it has been a 'tool of control' throughout the rise of the nazis and the Holocaust is simply the most evil thing they ever did. There are people saying Churches actually preached anti-Antisemitism back then.
There are many many Muslims who say suicide bombers are not real Muslims, compare it to that, but ask any suicide bomber and they'll tell you they are infact true Muslims.
Basically this is were I was coming from:
Hitler wanted to establish a new religion, with himself as the prophet. Felix Kersten, Himmler's confidante, found a variety of religious books in Himmler's library, and Himmler explained to him " I am to prepare a new Nazi religion. I am to draft the new Bible, the Bible of the faith.... The Fuhrer has decided that, after the victory of the Third Reich, he will abolish Christianity throughout Great Germany, and establish the faith on its ruins. The latter will preserve the idea of God, but it will be very vague and indistinct. The Fuhrer will replace Christ as the savior of humanity. Thus, millions and millions of people will say only Hitler's name in their prayers, and a hundred years from now nothing will be known but the new religion, which will endure for centuries."
Sure, because they lost, part of this never reached that state they wanted, but fact is Christianity was used (abused). I agree with anyone saying that this may not have much to do with Christianity itself, but if they'd won the war it would have been dramatically different. It's not just the ideology, it's also the method of (in)direct control through religion.
Another quote:
"The degree, in which the Bystander Nations (Christians) helped the Nazis, determined the Jewish survival rate. Judging from the dismal survival rate, especially in Eastern Europe, the Germans received extensive cooperation from the Bystander Nations."
Quote:
I really hope you aren't simply basing your spiritual life or understanding off of what people claim.
I understand what you mean, but you can't ignore they were people like you and me calling themselves 'Christians'. One way or the other, it's about their ideology driving them to act.
Cheers
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 18:57
Quote:
but ask any suicide bomber and they'll tell you they are infact true Muslims.
Yes, true, but somebody show me a "Christian" suicide bomber?
If fundamentalist christianity was just as dangerous as fundamentalist islam is,as you have posted, then surely there should be one somewhere?
Where are the christian suicider's?
Where?
Onward christian soldiers...Btw, our Algerian friend might be concerned.
Because according to the link below, then Allah has struck again today in Algeria.
Deadly Algiers bombings:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18052918/
I wonder what he thinks of this? Poor Algeria.
Now why do these terrorist do this in the name of their god?
Why?Please Mr. killer, please don't kill me just yet for Allah, because i have to finish my game for God first...
Haha! too funny, oh well back to work.
Nice talking with everyone!
Posted By: Hellcrypt
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 19:25
I don't know why you are acting like an [censored] there Ran Man. Although Albanians are not very religious Muslims, we still believe in god, yet I do not see us running around suicide bombing others.
Just because we are a Muslim does not mean we will kill you...
Look at WW2; Pearl Harbor, they where not Muslims yet they sacrificed themselves. Every country has special soldiers where they will give their lives in order to protect what they believe in. I do not support any of the bombing that are happening, but by categorizing all Muslims into killers is plain wrong. This people are brain washed to kill others and themselves in the process. I believe there where massive suicide cults here in the US as well. I am sure a lot of this people where Christians as well, so tell me what's the difference?
Please stop putting down people because of their religion. A lot of Muslim people you will meet (like myself) are really nice.
Just because we are a Muslim does not mean we will kill you...
Look at WW2; Pearl Harbor, they where not Muslims yet they sacrificed themselves. Every country has special soldiers where they will give their lives in order to protect what they believe in. I do not support any of the bombing that are happening, but by categorizing all Muslims into killers is plain wrong. This people are brain washed to kill others and themselves in the process. I believe there where massive suicide cults here in the US as well. I am sure a lot of this people where Christians as well, so tell me what's the difference?
Please stop putting down people because of their religion. A lot of Muslim people you will meet (like myself) are really nice.
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 20:30
Quote:
Just because we are a Muslim does not mean we will kill you...
Please stop putting down people because of their religion.
Hi
The jonetown cult in the 70's killed themselves and not tried to kill off a population.
In contrast, today's suicide bombers want to kill somebody else.I was only thinking of the good bombers at the story below.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18052918/
Not thinking of every and all muslim.
I'm glad you don't want to kill, but maybe you should, because the koran says to do it.
Quote:
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme"
( Koran 8:39 )
Now that word - UNTIL - is a time frame.
Is the world muslim now? No, it is not, so you are supposed to kill and make war until that happens. Right now, I'm making a game for God.
So, DON'T kill me!
After I get done with the game, then go ahead and kill me.
Btw, hey did you guys know that I got banned from a christian forum once for posting too much Koran? LOL
Yeah, the wimpy christians there banned me from their forum, because I showed them that Allah is not the biblical God. Some christians there were trying to say that Allah and Jehova were similiar. HAHA!
Aggh, the truth hurts.
Don't we all just prefer ignorance, yes?
Posted By: Matt_Aufderheide
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 22:05
Quote:
Yes, true, but somebody show me a "Christian" suicide bomber?
While I'm sure there are and have been such things, even if there aren't it doesn't prove Christians are incapable of such acts, only that they are not normally in a position to do such things. This kind of action generally results from a feeling of extreme desperation and oppression, and today most Christian poeple are not in this situation.
It is true however that Jesus taught what is essentially non-violence (turn the other cheek) and acceptance of temporal political oppression in favor of the rewards of heaven(render unto Caesar)..
Posted By: Irish_Farmer
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 22:42
Quote:
In fact, Western Civilization has been mostly about getting away from the draconian laws of the Tanakh (aka "Old Testament"). And, yes, fundamentalist Christians are just as dangerous as fundamentalist Muslims. One need look no further than the Holocaust, the Thirty Years' War, the Inquisition, the witch trials, the heresy trials, and the Dark Ages to see how vicious Christian fundamentalists can be. Christianity probably set back Western Civilization by at least 1500 years (think Bruno, Copernicus and Galileo for starters). And the current ignorant assaults on the teaching of evolution show just how treacherous Christian fundamentalists can be!
Its amazing to see so much historical misrepresentation in one paragraph. Its nearly staggering, to overexaggerate a bit.
Posted By: Kinji_2007
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 22:44
@Ran Man
Your on a roll.. I am gonna sit back and observe. lol God Bless ;-)
Your on a roll.. I am gonna sit back and observe. lol God Bless ;-)
Posted By: NITRO777
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 23:16
Quote:
It is true however that Jesus taught what is essentially non-violence (turn the other cheek) and acceptance of temporal political oppression in favor of the rewards of heaven(render unto Caesar)..
Quote:
While I dont disagree with your main point, what the hell does the holocuast have to do with fundemantalist Christians?.. the Nazis werent fundies or even really Christian..
What is up with Mr. Aufderheide? It almost seems like he is softening up with such Christian sympathetic statements?
You are correct. Jesus was a pacifist, and he would probably disagree with a lot of current fundamentalist Christians who advocate war. I have done a lot of thinking about this in my life, I am coming to the conclusion that Jesus would probably teach current Christians to stay_out_of_politics. I mean, I was pissed with all fundamentalist Muslims after 911 for years, but I was pissed off as an American, NOT as a Christian.
However on the other side I think that God is very much in control of what is happening on the global scale these days and that the whole mid-east conflict is coming closer to a head for some apolcalyptic finale.
Because Jesus preached the apocalypse and hell does that mean He was not a pacifist? 1)He was a pacifist but He prophesied judgement, war and famine not by his own hand,...but by the very hand of Justice. The message of Jesus was to help people escape from the judgement He prophesied, not nessesarily the judgement He caused. Its an important distinction.
And about the holocaust, while everyone concentrates an the 6 million Jews that were killed people seem to forget the millions of Christians killed
Posted By: LarryLaffer
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/11/07 23:54
Quote:
I'm glad you don't want to kill, but maybe you should, because the koran says to do it.
Quote:
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme"
( Koran 8:39 )
Now that word - UNTIL - is a time frame. Is the world muslim now? No, it is not, so you are supposed to kill and make war until that happens.
1) In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it's OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.
2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.
3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.
4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.
5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.
6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.
7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.
So, what's your point?
I'm not claiming I've read the bible. This is the first results I got from searching google for "bible promotes violence". Now I'm sure, these were all probably taken out of context, or they could probably mean something less literal, but couldn't it be the same case for the Koran?
I normally don't get in the middle of religious conversations, but Hellcrypt is a friend of mine and I find your behavior towards him to be provoking, prejudiced, and quite honestly, lame. Not everyone shares the same opinions you do, and you shouldn't mock his religion, regardless if he's practising it or not. How would you feel if i'd mock christianity instead by... say i don't know... doing jesus dress up maybe?
I don't want to judge you RanMan because i don't know you, but your post above doesn't remind me any of Jesus teachings at all. I don't want to think that you're representing a model behavior of your religion, or i'm going to lose any respect I have for Christian people altogether.
You don't have to, but I think you owe Hellcrypt an apology
Yours,
Aris
Posted By: Kinji_2007
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 00:43
Besides the six doctrines to be believed, there are five duties to be performed:
1. Statement of belief: To become a Muslim, a person must publicly repeat the Shahadah: “There is no god but Allah and Mohammad is the prophet of Allah.”
2. Prayers: This ritual must be performed five times a day. The Muslim must kneel and bow in the direction of the holy city, Mecca.
3. Alms: Muslim law today requires the believer to give one-fortieth of his income. This offering goes to widows, orphans, the sick and other unfortunates.
4. Ramadan: The ninth month of the Muslim lunar year is called Ramadan. It is the highest of holy seasons. Muslims are required to fast for the entire month, but only during daylight hours. As soon as the sun sets, the feasting begins. During Ramadan, the believer must not commit any unworthy act. If he does, his fasting is meaningless.
5. Pilgrimage to Mecca: This is called the Hajj and must be performed at least once in a Muslim’s lifetime. However, if the pilgrimage is too difficult or dangerous for the believer, he can send someone in his place.
Though not “officially” defined along with the five duties are two additional duties of every Muslim.
6. Jihad, or holy war. When any Muslim anywhere declares a jihad, all Muslims everywhere are duty-bound to join the jihad. Since Osama bin Laden declared a jihad against the United States, all Muslims everywhere, including all American citizens who are Muslims, are duty bound to participate in the jihad against America.
7. Shahada. To seek death for Allah. Palestinian leaders are now brainwashing children as young as 12 or 13 years old to actively seek to die as Shaheedin (martyrs) for Allah in the jihad against Israel. They are taught that not only is Shahada their duty, it is something sweet to be pursued. Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority actively praise these young Shaheedin and hold them up as an example to be followed by all Palestinian children.
6 and 7 is a bit extreme. Just thought this was a interesting read.
VIDEO
1. Statement of belief: To become a Muslim, a person must publicly repeat the Shahadah: “There is no god but Allah and Mohammad is the prophet of Allah.”
2. Prayers: This ritual must be performed five times a day. The Muslim must kneel and bow in the direction of the holy city, Mecca.
3. Alms: Muslim law today requires the believer to give one-fortieth of his income. This offering goes to widows, orphans, the sick and other unfortunates.
4. Ramadan: The ninth month of the Muslim lunar year is called Ramadan. It is the highest of holy seasons. Muslims are required to fast for the entire month, but only during daylight hours. As soon as the sun sets, the feasting begins. During Ramadan, the believer must not commit any unworthy act. If he does, his fasting is meaningless.
5. Pilgrimage to Mecca: This is called the Hajj and must be performed at least once in a Muslim’s lifetime. However, if the pilgrimage is too difficult or dangerous for the believer, he can send someone in his place.
Though not “officially” defined along with the five duties are two additional duties of every Muslim.
6. Jihad, or holy war. When any Muslim anywhere declares a jihad, all Muslims everywhere are duty-bound to join the jihad. Since Osama bin Laden declared a jihad against the United States, all Muslims everywhere, including all American citizens who are Muslims, are duty bound to participate in the jihad against America.
7. Shahada. To seek death for Allah. Palestinian leaders are now brainwashing children as young as 12 or 13 years old to actively seek to die as Shaheedin (martyrs) for Allah in the jihad against Israel. They are taught that not only is Shahada their duty, it is something sweet to be pursued. Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority actively praise these young Shaheedin and hold them up as an example to be followed by all Palestinian children.
6 and 7 is a bit extreme. Just thought this was a interesting read.
VIDEO
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 01:32
Quote:
Its amazing to see so much historical misrepresentation in one paragraph. Its nearly staggering, to overexaggerate a bit.
"Misrepresentation" as in how? You say the inquisition wasn't Christian or what? Feel free to open a new thread for this btw as this will inevitably go off topic in the current thread.
Quote:
Though not “officially” defined along with the five duties are two additional duties of every Muslim.
6. Jihad, or holy war. When any Muslim anywhere declares a jihad, all Muslims everywhere are duty-bound to join the jihad. Since Osama bin Laden declared a jihad against the United States, all Muslims everywhere, including all American citizens who are Muslims, are duty bound to participate in the jihad against America.
7. Shahada. To seek death for Allah. Palestinian leaders are now brainwashing children as young as 12 or 13 years old to actively seek to die as Shaheedin (martyrs) for Allah in the jihad against Israel. They are taught that not only is Shahada their duty, it is something sweet to be pursued. Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority actively praise these young Shaheedin and hold them up as an example to be followed by all Palestinian children.
They are not official and yet everybody seems to always add them 'as if they are'. (no attack towards you kinji, you said they are unofficial).
Cheers
Posted By: xXxGuitar511
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 04:10
Quote:
Yes, true, but somebody show me a "Christian" suicide bomber?
I'll do it!
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 04:56
Quote:
I'll do it!
Good.
Please post a link to it, so I can read about it.
Quote:
So, what's your point?
The bible directs violence at HISTORICAL figures that are named.
In contrast, the Koran directs violence at any non-muslim and are not named.
I like hellcrypt. nothing personal man.
Posted By: jcl
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 08:45
Quote:
what the hell does the holocuast have to do with fundemantalist Christians?.. the Nazis werent fundies or even really Christian..
Indeed Nazi ideology was not based on Christianity. Hitler was deeply religious, but not in a Christian way. He believed in a concept he called "providence".
Still, Christian traditions have a lot to do with the holocaust. The whole concept of Jews being a wicked people who do not deserve to live goes back to the 11th century, the age of the crusades. The Second crusade failed to accomplish its goals, and as a sort of compensation killed all Jews in the cities on their way back. Since then, jewish pogroms and massacres regularly occured in most Christian cities. The only countries where jews could live in peace were countries under Islamic rule.
Posted By: William
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 09:17
Quote:
I understand what you mean, but you can't ignore they were people like you and me calling themselves 'Christians'. One way or the other, it's about their ideology driving them to act.
Yeah, that was the point I was trying to get across. You'll find many nutcases claiming to be Christian, and all sorts of things, all the time throughout history. It's obvious that real Christians could have absolutely no part in the cause of the holocaust as Jesus is Jewish.
Does this mean your not a Christian if you are anti-semantic? Possibly. However, racism is one of many problems in the world, alongside jealousy, perversion, violence, ect. For some people it just pops up now and then, a somewhat recurring problem in their lives but in truth their just being spontaneous with it, and usually try to act better. For others, they like to act on it, and always have a hardened heart full of hatred towards certain peoples. You'd think this latter group would have a hard time calling themselves Christian? Not always, unfortunately, but if you understand anything about the new Testament and the such, you'll be able to distinguish between people who "claim" and people who are.
I really don't have any facts on the actings of Islam, as I never read the Koran top to bottom, and am not going to base my facts off of what others say. But what I can say is that usually a religion or ideology is measured on what it produces. In Canada, those who I know that are Muslim are nice people, usually keep to themselves, and don't create no problems(usually less than those who aren't as Muslims they don't drink alchohol, and refrain from partying).
But what troubles me is all this violence around the world "in the name of Islam". I believe Matt's right and oppression is probably a cause in this as well, but perhaps there are some areas of the Koran that really are quite hard to translate. I see it this way because of the seemingly split Muslim community. It's almost as though there are Canada/U.S Muslims, and then the rest of the world Muslims.
In the end, this can worry some a bit, especially for those in my age group. If there was ever a large scale war from this(Iran + nukes mabye?), guess who would be conscripted?
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 15:51
I don't think it is "fair" to judge an entire religion based upon 11th century actions or even actions from 50 years ago.
There is no need to do that.
Just look at modern day religious people.
Why go backwards in time?
Just compare the most radical people of christianity with the most radical people of islam? Can anybody see a difference?
Is Bin Laden different than the pope?
Is Al Zahiri different than Jerry Falwell?
Why? both men are only following their Holy books?
Because just look at this verse from the Koran below to see why.
That's pretty crazy huh? The idea that God loves violence.
Now contrast that with the bible below.
Aha! Now that is the REAL creator God.
In fact, the world was destroyed in Noah's time, because of all the violence in it.
There is no need to do that.
Just look at modern day religious people.
Why go backwards in time?
Just compare the most radical people of christianity with the most radical people of islam? Can anybody see a difference?
Is Bin Laden different than the pope?
Is Al Zahiri different than Jerry Falwell?
Why? both men are only following their Holy books?
Because just look at this verse from the Koran below to see why.
Quote:
Koran 2:216
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
That's pretty crazy huh? The idea that God loves violence.
Now contrast that with the bible below.
Quote:
1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
Aha! Now that is the REAL creator God.
In fact, the world was destroyed in Noah's time, because of all the violence in it.
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 16:03
Quote:
I don't think it is "fair" to judge an entire religion based upon 11th century actions or even actions from 50 years ago.
There is no need to do that.
Just look at modern day religious people.
Why go backwards in time?
You are going back all the way to the first century for your entire belief, so your argument is seriously flawed.
By the way, didn't Bush start a war in Iraq? Isn't Bush a Christian? The motives of that war are quite controversial, some say oil, some say 'to expand the US empire', some say to get a Christian base within the Islamic zone of the world there and some say 'simply to get rid of Saddam'. Well, why would the US want to do that? Because they are Christians?
I guess history will tell us what really went on in Iraq or perhaps it never will, because winners write our history, but at least it could give some insights... History is very important it can teach valuable lessons, but a lot of people don't want to learn I guess,
Quote:
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
I know love and I sure as heck don't know God,
Cheers
Posted By: Robotronic
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 18:24
I´m not really a Muslim, but I´m interested in all religions. So why not spend a little time with the Qur´an ...
There´s not such a big difference between the attitude in the Qur´an and our western values.
1) Religious tolerance:
(2:256) There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
(2.062) Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Not only it is clearly rejected, that others are forced to Islam, Jews and Christians can even allowed to go to heaven.
2) Violence:
(2.190) Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
___
But what about RanMans quote: "Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme"( Koran 8:39 )
Shortened like this it creates the impression, that Muslims are somehow hell-bent on war.
He doesn´t mention, that Mohammed did say this in a historical context, where the early Muslims were attacked and persecuted.
There are obviously some "Christian" websites, that put lines out of context in order to promote their desired clash of civilizations.
Here are three different translations of the same text:
008.039
YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
This passage is preceded by these words:
(8.038) Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning).
Later in the text the Qur´an sais:
(8.061) But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
There is a consistent and well defined attitude towards violence:
Fight back if people attack you and (depending on the translation) fight against oppression.
So the whole story is: if you are going to attack Muslims, they are allowed to fight back. If you stop the aggression, Muslims are usually happy to live in peace.
Some Christians seem to be a little bit hypocritical about this: while Jesus had this "turn the other cheek" message, they make this convenient difference between religion and politics. So depending on their mood and the situation they think they can turn to arms, start wars, whatever - but on sunday in churches they keep the noble ideal of a pacifist do-gooder religion.
Is this so much better, than a faith system, where rules for war are clearly defined?
Our secular western values (also the concept of "just war", which was later introduced to the christian faith) do respect the right of self defense and we also tend to respect the right to resist oppression.
What seems strange to some people is the fact that in Islamic societys there is not this "job sharing", this difference between noble (but unrealistic) ideals on the one hand and a military industrial complex (who is only bound by realpolitik) on the other hand.
There´s not such a big difference between the attitude in the Qur´an and our western values.
1) Religious tolerance:
(2:256) There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
(2.062) Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Not only it is clearly rejected, that others are forced to Islam, Jews and Christians can even allowed to go to heaven.
2) Violence:
(2.190) Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
___
But what about RanMans quote: "Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme"( Koran 8:39 )
Shortened like this it creates the impression, that Muslims are somehow hell-bent on war.
He doesn´t mention, that Mohammed did say this in a historical context, where the early Muslims were attacked and persecuted.
There are obviously some "Christian" websites, that put lines out of context in order to promote their desired clash of civilizations.
Here are three different translations of the same text:
008.039
YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
This passage is preceded by these words:
(8.038) Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning).
Later in the text the Qur´an sais:
(8.061) But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
There is a consistent and well defined attitude towards violence:
Fight back if people attack you and (depending on the translation) fight against oppression.
So the whole story is: if you are going to attack Muslims, they are allowed to fight back. If you stop the aggression, Muslims are usually happy to live in peace.
Some Christians seem to be a little bit hypocritical about this: while Jesus had this "turn the other cheek" message, they make this convenient difference between religion and politics. So depending on their mood and the situation they think they can turn to arms, start wars, whatever - but on sunday in churches they keep the noble ideal of a pacifist do-gooder religion.
Is this so much better, than a faith system, where rules for war are clearly defined?
Our secular western values (also the concept of "just war", which was later introduced to the christian faith) do respect the right of self defense and we also tend to respect the right to resist oppression.
What seems strange to some people is the fact that in Islamic societys there is not this "job sharing", this difference between noble (but unrealistic) ideals on the one hand and a military industrial complex (who is only bound by realpolitik) on the other hand.
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 19:13
Quote:
So the whole story is: if you are going to attack Muslims, they are allowed to fight back. If you stop the aggression, Muslims are usually happy to live in peace.
Sure, I agree.
They only attack, because they are attacked.
They only attacked and slaughtered the Byzantine empire shown below, because they attacked them.
They only attacked Austria and Serbia, because they were attacked.
They only attacked Spain, because they were attacked.
They only attacked the 911 trade towers, because they were attacked.
They only attack Israel today, because they are attacked.
Right? Oh they are sooo peaceful, yep the whole story.
Btw, I tried to talk to a citizen of Byzantium recently, but they died off a long time ago. Oh, but muslims are peace loving, yes.
Here is a map of Byzantium, before the muslims destroyed it, but oh I know, it was the Byzantines fault, yep.
Oh, yes, allah does love peace, you are correct. 
Btw, here is a verse below regarding the Byzantine empire.
From the Koran:
Quote:
The Romans have been defeated.
The Quran Sura 30:2
Yeah, it's WAR all the way baby!
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 19:32
@Ran_Man: again you're trying to say Christianity is better than the Islam. Giving examples like you did is pointless, there are equal if not more examples that can be give that show Christianity is violent. Infact, the old testament is full of it. So I don't understand why you want to uphold this 'artificial difference' of yours.
This is so true. Iraq before 9/11 (and thus after 9/11) wasn't even a threat at all. Even Condaliza Rice and Powell said so in February 2001. The war in Afghanistan and Iraq made the position of America worse, not better. There are more terrorists now than before both wars. All in all, there was no reason at all to attack. Apart from that the whole thing in Israel is very bad too. Palestinians simply want a life, but in return are treated like dirt, off course extremely desperate people will eventually snap and become a suicide bomber. People have to understand that those are reactions to their situations , you don't start an offense with suicide bombers, Ran_Man are you mad?
Cheers
Quote:
So the whole story is: if you are going to attack Muslims, they are allowed to fight back. If you stop the aggression, Muslims are usually happy to live in peace.
This is so true. Iraq before 9/11 (and thus after 9/11) wasn't even a threat at all. Even Condaliza Rice and Powell said so in February 2001. The war in Afghanistan and Iraq made the position of America worse, not better. There are more terrorists now than before both wars. All in all, there was no reason at all to attack. Apart from that the whole thing in Israel is very bad too. Palestinians simply want a life, but in return are treated like dirt, off course extremely desperate people will eventually snap and become a suicide bomber. People have to understand that those are reactions to their situations , you don't start an offense with suicide bombers, Ran_Man are you mad?
Cheers
Posted By: xXxGuitar511
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 19:52
Quote:
I know love and I sure as heck don't know God
lmao - true, true...
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 20:35
You cannot truly love for real, if you do not know God.
You might think you love, but it's not possible without Him.
@ Phemox
I only said that, because he said something false.
He said:
Btw, no offense, but you guys are ignorant.
Do you really think they kill themselves for Bush or Israel?
Hehe? That's really not smart.
The reason why the muslim bombers exist are found in the Koran below:
Aggh, to be slain in the way of Allah means that you go to heaven!
Just read what they read and understand?
Anyways, I have a message for HELLCRYPT our muslim friend.
Hey bro, read the Koran below:
KORAN VERSE for my HELLCRYPT friend:
Aha! So, if you are peaceful, <and you are> , then if you want a higher rank with allah, then you have to act crazy and start bombing people. You have to FIGHT for God and all that nonsense. Make WAR and life hell down here for everybody. Staying at home and being peaceful is not allah's way at all.
<just joking>, but the Koran verses above are true, however.
Is it crazy? Funny? or what?
You might think you love, but it's not possible without Him.
@ Phemox
I only said that, because he said something false.
He said:
Quote:So, I had to show that historically it's not true.
If you stop the aggression, Muslims are usually happy to live in peace.
Btw, no offense, but you guys are ignorant.
Do you really think they kill themselves for Bush or Israel?
Hehe?
That's really not smart.The reason why the muslim bombers exist are found in the Koran below:
Quote:
Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
Soon will He guide them and improve their condition,
And admit them to the Garden which He has announced for them.
Koran Sura 47:4-6
Aggh, to be slain in the way of Allah means that you go to heaven!
Just read what they read and understand?
Anyways, I have a message for HELLCRYPT our muslim friend.
Hey bro, read the Koran below:
KORAN VERSE for my HELLCRYPT friend:
Quote:
"The believers who stay at home––apart from those that suffer a grave impediment––are not the equals of those who fight for the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home ..." (4:95,96)
Aha! So, if you are peaceful, <and you are>
, then if you want a higher rank with allah, then you have to act crazy and start bombing people. You have to FIGHT for God and all that nonsense. Make WAR and life hell down here for everybody. Staying at home and being peaceful is not allah's way at all.<just joking>, but the Koran verses above are true, however.
Is it crazy? Funny? or what?
Posted By: xXxGuitar511
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 21:06
Quote:
You cannot truly love for real, if you do not know God.
You might think you love, but it's not possible without Him.
There was love, the most I shall ever endure. But there was no GOD, and his love is nowhere for me to see... All that I feel now is HATE, so where's your GOD?
Posted By: Hellcrypt
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 21:33
Hey Ran Man,
(I am not doing this because I am a devout believer, I am doing it because you are categorizing Muslims into one whole group; suicide bombers.)
Do you yourself do exactly what the bible says? Do you turn the other cheek when someone else slaps you? If so you sure are not showing it here.
You keep trying to pick a reason why all Muslims should start a war against everyone else until they are all Muslims as well. We have no reason to do that, it depends on the person and not what they believe in. I think you might have an obsession with killing and war, not very holy like.
That is not true at all, the reason why there are suicide bombers is because they have been brain washed. If the cults back in the 70's had been told to kill off anyone they saw that was not in their cult, I am sure they would have done it. Same with Pearl Harbor, their religion did not tell them to do suicide plane strikes, yet they did it anyway.
Some people like Osama just use the Quran as a way to enforce their power. Because some Muslims are really religious these people exploit it to their will.
Unfortunately your only support in this theory is what the Quran says. Not what is actually causing this catastrophes; the evil people behind it that are taking small children who are taught to love their land and God and manipulating them to sacrifice themselves.
This is not what the religion is based on. It's like any other religion; treat others as they would like to treat you.
You also mentioned who the Muslims have attacked... What about Alexander the Great and all the other rulers that ruled this world. They did the exact same thing, conquered and killed based on what they believe in. So it's the people behind all of this that are responsible and not the actual religion.
Erald
(I am not doing this because I am a devout believer, I am doing it because you are categorizing Muslims into one whole group; suicide bombers.)
Do you yourself do exactly what the bible says? Do you turn the other cheek when someone else slaps you? If so you sure are not showing it here.
You keep trying to pick a reason why all Muslims should start a war against everyone else until they are all Muslims as well. We have no reason to do that, it depends on the person and not what they believe in. I think you might have an obsession with killing and war, not very holy like.
Quote:
The reason why the Muslim bombers exist are found in the Koran below:
That is not true at all, the reason why there are suicide bombers is because they have been brain washed. If the cults back in the 70's had been told to kill off anyone they saw that was not in their cult, I am sure they would have done it. Same with Pearl Harbor, their religion did not tell them to do suicide plane strikes, yet they did it anyway.
Some people like Osama just use the Quran as a way to enforce their power. Because some Muslims are really religious these people exploit it to their will.
Unfortunately your only support in this theory is what the Quran says. Not what is actually causing this catastrophes; the evil people behind it that are taking small children who are taught to love their land and God and manipulating them to sacrifice themselves.
This is not what the religion is based on. It's like any other religion; treat others as they would like to treat you.
You also mentioned who the Muslims have attacked... What about Alexander the Great and all the other rulers that ruled this world. They did the exact same thing, conquered and killed based on what they believe in. So it's the people behind all of this that are responsible and not the actual religion.
Erald
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 22:26
Ran_man you also totally ignored the point LarryLaffer made about the bible by the way...
It's possible without him, infact it's not possible with God, since true love is a two-way thing and you can't have true love with something/someone if it doesn't love you back. I'd say go ahead and prove God loves us, then you'll make your point, untill then though sayonara....
You are actually the one thinking you love.
You don't seem to understand why terrorism actually exists, but that's your problem. Terrorism is not the result of religion. Nations conquering others also has close to nothing to do with the Islam as a belief, and if it does according to you, think of all the Christian regimes conquering others. Both are just as 'evil' in that way,
That's mainly the result of post-war politics and who got to power. For some reason 11 million military casualties on the USSR side often don't seem to "really count" either (I mean in history books).
I don't have a clue if it's true, but people say the US is supporting Israel this much because the people really in control of the US have always been Jews.
Cheers
Quote:
You cannot truly love for real, if you do not know God.
You might think you love, but it's not possible without Him.
It's possible without him, infact it's not possible with God, since true love is a two-way thing and you can't have true love with something/someone if it doesn't love you back. I'd say go ahead and prove God loves us, then you'll make your point, untill then though sayonara....
You are actually the one thinking you love.
Quote:
So, I had to show that historically it's not true.
You don't seem to understand why terrorism actually exists, but that's your problem. Terrorism is not the result of religion. Nations conquering others also has close to nothing to do with the Islam as a belief, and if it does according to you, think of all the Christian regimes conquering others. Both are just as 'evil' in that way,
Quote:
And about the holocaust, while everyone concentrates an the 6 million Jews that were killed people seem to forget the millions of Christians killed
That's mainly the result of post-war politics and who got to power. For some reason 11 million military casualties on the USSR side often don't seem to "really count" either (I mean in history books).
I don't have a clue if it's true, but people say the US is supporting Israel this much because the people really in control of the US have always been Jews.
Cheers
Posted By: lostclimate
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 22:42
Quote:
By the way, didn't Bush start a war in Iraq? Isn't Bush a Christian?
HEY! im a christian, and trust me, I am in no way in favor of what bush is doing, there is no way that smug stuttering, half-retarded dumass should be allowed to be an example of what a christian really is.
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/12/07 22:45
True, and I totally agree, however Ran_Man pointed us to historical examples of let's just say 'Islamic' governments who started wars, I simply explained it's nonsense to interpret them like that, but if you dó, Bush is one of "them". Off course good people are against wars,
Cheers
Cheers
Posted By: Robotronic
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/13/07 10:59
Quote:
Btw, here is a verse below regarding the Byzantine empire.
The Romans have been defeated.
The Quran Sura 30:2
Of course this has absolutely nothing to do with the finall fall of the Byzantine empire, which happened in 1453.
The Qur´an was written several centuries before this and the passage, that you quote was a reference to a battle between the Persians and the Romans in 615 AD.
The fall of the Byzantine empire - and I don´t know, why I should deplore this - started in 1215 AD with the fourth crusade:
Quote:
The Fourth Crusade was an unparalelled military and political catastrophe for the Byzantine Empire. The armies of the Crusade, originally planning to attack Fatimid Egypt, ended up sacking and occupying Constantinople. The irony of sworn defenders of Christianity despoiling the largest and wealthiest city in Christendom was not lost on the Byzantines, who despised the Catholic West for centuries afterwards. [...]
According to a prearranged treaty, the Byzantine empire was dissolved and its territories divided between Venice and the Latin Empire of Constantinople. The Greek Orthodox clergy were displaced by Latin Catholic clergy, while the nobility were displaced by Latin feudal barons. Byzantine exiles fled Constantinople, taking refuge in Nicaea, Trebizond, and Epirus.
link
When the Ottoman Turks finally captured Constantinople, they simply put up what was left.
You might also have a deeper look at the history of Spain. Here the Muslims were invited to assist a certain Julian, count of Ceuta, in his power struggle with Roderic and the Roman Catholic church.
I do not say, that all Muslim nations were peaceful all the time. There were certainly imperial aspects too and lots of clashes with the Christian empires.
But compare the way Jews and Christians were treated by Muslims - for example, when they captured Spain, with the way Christians treated Muslims and Jews - for example, when the crusaders captured Jerusalem.
While Christians for centuries regarded every non-Christian as sub-human, a form of tolerance - especially towards Christians and Jews was part of Islam from the beginning. The Christians came to appreciate these values only centuries later (see enlightenment).
Posted By: LarryLaffer
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/13/07 12:09
Quote:
Btw, I tried to talk to a citizen of Byzantium recently, but they died off a long time ago.
Are you like... an idiot? If you mean you didn't know that a country called "Byzantium" does not exist in the modern world, until you googled out that they all... died off.. then.. wow.. Then again, if you mean you tried to find people that have roots from the Byzantium, then they didn't all 'implode' when Byzantium fell, like how you destroy all buildings on a red alert 2 game, and the troops just all die out.
Constantinoupoli, once the Byzantium capital, is now called Istanbul and makes up for near the new borders between Greece and Turkey. Greek minorities still live in Istanbul, who's great-great-great.. grandfathers were from Byzantium, and they all have great stories to tell. They all live in harmony with Turks now, and despite Turks being evil blood lusting muslims, they've somehow developed a very beneficial relationship, and lots of weddings happen between Greeks and Turks. My sources are not from wikipedia or history sites, but because I have family there.
The war between Greece and Turkey was hardly a religious one, at any period of time. We both share the Aigeo pelagos, which is an invaluable asset for high-seas trading, and both Greece and Turkey have tried to occupy the coasts of the opposite country in many wars. Constantinoupoli itself was an outstanding trading and war-tactical point, by being in the middle of three continents, Europe, Asia and Africa. Saying that Turkey leaders once looked up their Korans and decided to kick some Christian ass by invading Constantinoupoli, probably after doing a 5-min google "research", to me comes as a shock. Normally, If i don't have sufficient background knowledge about a subject I refrain from saying anything, but if I have to, i'll try to educate myself by studying at least 10-20 different sources, before giving my own opinion. If nothing else, it prevents me from making an ass of myself.
I shouldn't have called you an idiot, and i apologise for that on reserve. I will also refrain from keep posting here because, I bet everything i got, that it won't lead anywhere. The only reason i made this post, is my total suprise of your post that I'm refering to. I know there's no way to say this without sounding offending but.. have you ever attempted to do an IQ test? Seriously, i'm not being a wise-guy, i would just be interested to know your score, if you ever had one.
yeah, i'm sure you'll get insulted by that, and maybe you'd have a reason to.. but i'll leave the post stand anyway.. I can't possibly get along with everyone..
Cheers,
Aris
Posted By: NITRO777
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/13/07 12:56
Quote:In fairness to Ran_Man he is definitely not an idiot, hes a programmer at IBM and has been for years, plus I have talked to him on the phone and I can tell he is pretty smart. But he is making a big mess on this forum which apparently he is going to just let the other Christians here clean up after he dissappears again.
Are you like... an idiot?
Quote:
1) In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it's OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.
2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.
3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.
4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.
5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.
6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.
7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.
1-4 yes.
5 not exactly, the passage is talking about ISRAELIS who leave to worship other gods.
6 not really, 1)Jesus is not upholding OT law 2)these are not disobedient children, they are cursing their parents
7)no, its a parable about the Father, and the afterlife
Quote:
The whole concept of Jews being a wicked people who do not deserve to live goes back to the 11th century, the age of the crusades. The Second crusade failed to accomplish its goals, and as a sort of compensation killed all Jews in the cities on their way back. Since then, jewish pogroms and massacres regularly occured in most Christian cities. The only countries where jews could live in peace were countries under Islamic rule
No, the Jew-killing concept go back much further than the 11th century, it probably started with various tribes,then Egypt, then Assyria, then Babylon, then Persia, then Greece, then Rome. After Rome the Jews lost their land and were persecuted throughout the world.
Pound for Pound the Jews are arguably the toughest, most adaptable, most enduring race on earth. Its ironic then that the eugenic environment which propelled Hitlers ideas would see the aryans as the most fit race.
Posted By: Irish_Farmer
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/13/07 16:06
Quote:
There are more terrorists now than before both wars.
I'm sorry...what? Did you take a survey of terrorists before and after the war?
Quote:
"Misrepresentation" as in how? You say the inquisition wasn't Christian or what? Feel free to open a new thread for this btw as this will inevitably go off topic in the current thread.
The inquisition has become more myth than anything, mostly fueled by skeptical criticism of Christianity. At this point, it appears that most people don't know the truth behind the matter, they just reference the inquisition in the assumption that everyone else will think it was a bloodbath at the hands of lunatic Christians.
This guy will not only lay it out better than I can, or care to, but he also will probably head off any initial rebuttles you would have to the issue.
Quote:
HEY! im a christian, and trust me, I am in no way in favor of what bush is doing, there is no way that smug stuttering, half-retarded dumass should be allowed to be an example of what a christian really is.
rofl...the irony.
Posted By: AlbertoT
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/13/07 19:15
Quote:
Yes, true, but somebody show me a "Christian" suicide bomber?
If fundamentalist christianity was just as dangerous as fundamentalist islam is,as you have posted, then surely there should be one somewhere?
Show me how how many Christians live in the same miserable conditions as the the Phalestinians in the strip of Gaza ?
The point is that fanatism has nothing to do neither with religion nor race rather with economic situation
Islam is at least as advanced as modern Christian religion from an ethic point of view simply because midlle east was the craddle of the civilty at the time of prophet Mohamed while we, europeans were hundred years behind
Christians pretend to forget some embarassing part of the old testament but they should not not forget that Jews were a savage population at the time the Bible has been written
You can not expect something different
Your stomach, your religion
I dont want to offend the feelings of religious people both Christian and Muslins but this is the crude , bloody truth
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/13/07 23:29
Quote:
I'm sorry...what? Did you take a survey of terrorists before and after the war?
Do surveys do you any good when asking around if anyone is a terrorist? Stupid question, stupid method. Besides, look at the amount of attacks within the short timespan of about 5 to 10 years, you'll see there have been more and because a large amount are actually suicide bombings, there simply have to be more than before.
Quote:
The inquisition has become more myth than anything, mostly fueled by skeptical criticism of Christianity. At this point, it appears that most people don't know the truth behind the matter, they just reference the inquisition in the assumption that everyone else will think it was a bloodbath at the hands of lunatic Christians.
The inquisition isn't a myth, nor is Christianity's role in it. Those lunatics in control called themselves Christians, had Christian followers and did horrible and disgusting things in the name of Christianity. Back to my quote I don't see what has been 'misrepresentated' about that.
Quote:
Pound for Pound the Jews are arguably the toughest, most adaptable, most enduring race on earth.
Uuhm, Jews are not a race. (Nor does a superior race exist, we really are all equal. Let's assume for a second that 'selection' has been tough on the "race" of Jews, our knowledge only goes back ~2000 years. 2000 years on the evolutionary scale is close to nothing and don't forget most if not all other races survived too. I can't see any reason to assume ANY race would be superior to another and I really mean ANY.
)Cheers
Posted By: JetpackMonkey
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/13/07 23:45
Quote:
Show me how how many Christians live in the same miserable conditions as the the Phalestinians in the strip of Gaza
Just go to Mexico or the Phillipines, Africa, South America, Romania, there are plenty of christians living in third world conditions. It's totally wrong to assume that Christian = North American / European and wealthy. (that doesn't stop the pope from sitting atop a castle of gold)
BY the way, bush calls himself a christian, but he's a methodist-- which is actually a very "christianity lite" kind of church-- in fact the methodists are pretty chill compared to others -- Bush plays up the christian thing to appeal to southern baptists. It's all about the post-Goldwater "southern strategy" to attract southern baptists, who will always vote for the candidate who plays up the sensationalist christian issues:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy
Republicans weren't like that before Reagan.
Hellcrypt I am with you on this, by the way. There is a climate of ignorance and prejudice driven solely by fear and xenophobia in America, and it makes me so mad. Islam is a beautiful religion practiced by a highly ethical, introspective and devout people, with a discipline that I find admirable. I have never met a Muslim I did not like (and having lived in NW London, I met many).
It's so stupid and myopic to identify an entire religious group with a very small minority whose actions are questionable. If you want to talk about murderers, we American taxpayers have more blood on our hands than the sum total of people killed in suicide bombings. Then there's also the Irish religious conflict and the bombings going on there.
Posted By: NITRO777
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/14/07 01:14
Quote:It hardly matters what your definitions of a race are. It really only matters what your definition of 'superior' is, in selection it is all about 'survival of the fittest' and all I am saying is that in my humble opinion, even though I dont think like Nazi's, if I did, even according to Darwinist standards the Jews seem much more 'fit' 'superior' 'strong' whatever then any nation on earth based upon many observations.
Uuhm, Jews are not a race. I can't see any reason to assume ANY race would be superior to another and I really mean ANY
Quote:Well I know that already, however the Nazis were influenced by strong naturalistic thinking: concepts such as freedom and equality are inconsistent with evolutionary theory, since they are based on the idea of innate human rights. These ideals would have to give way before the right of the stronger in the struggle for existence.
(Nor does a superior race exist, we really are all equal.)
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/14/07 04:40
Hey Guys, I've been gone and am trying to help INTEL to help APPLE.
It's a long story though. Basically the company I work for is trying to make a project for them and I had to leave for Oregon a couple of days ago.
Yes, I agree and that is an excellent point.
But, the Bzyantines <in their day> were not called Byzantines, but were called Romans.
The Koran is just lifting up another example of violence as good again. When violence is not good.
Btw, understand that the Koran is supposed to be a LATER revelation from God. It is newer than the new testament.
So, when it contradicts the bible and Christ, then you are supposed to obey it <and not the bible> and then go to WAR and stuff. Because it is a LATER revelation!
It's pretty ridulous, but oh well.
Reading the Koran, you understand that God is pleased with head-chopping and all types of abominations. shheesh.
It's a long story though. Basically the company I work for is trying to make a project for them and I had to leave for Oregon a couple of days ago.
Quote:
Of course this has absolutely nothing to do with the finall fall of the Byzantine empire, which happened in 1453.
The Qur´an was written several centuries before this and the passage, that you quote was a reference to a battle between the Persians and the Romans in 615 AD.
Yes, I agree and that is an excellent point.
But, the Bzyantines <in their day> were not called Byzantines, but were called Romans.
The Koran is just lifting up another example of violence as good again.
When violence is not good.Btw, understand that the Koran is supposed to be a LATER revelation from God. It is newer than the new testament.
So, when it contradicts the bible and Christ, then you are supposed to obey it <and not the bible> and then go to WAR and stuff. Because it is a LATER revelation!
It's pretty ridulous, but oh well.
Reading the Koran, you understand that God is pleased with head-chopping and all types of abominations. shheesh.
Posted By: lostclimate
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/14/07 10:20
Quote:Quote:
HEY! im a christian, and trust me, I am in no way in favor of what bush is doing, there is no way that smug stuttering, half-retarded dumass should be allowed to be an example of what a Christian really is.
rofl...the irony.
Ok, i know were you probably see the irony, the fact that I am not even half as informed as most of the people on this forum, in any topic, namely for this case Christianity, but honestly, if I were to have anybody represent Christians, it would definitely not be him. Do you at least see were im coming from there?
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/14/07 10:52
Quote:
It hardly matters what your definitions of a race are.
A group that has the same religion is (by far) not (always) the same as a race. It really matters a lot, since through time Jews have consisted of a whole variety of races Nitro
. Eugenics is about groups that share a genetic history, a group of people with the same religion doesn't have to be from the same race at all. (Hitler considered Jews to be a (just one) race, yes, but off course he was 100% wrong there).Quote:
even according to Darwinist standards the Jews seem much more 'fit' 'superior' 'strong' whatever then any nation on earth based upon many observations.
That's a rather shortsighted view (eventhough not really yours, I understand) though, not just because Jews are not a race, but also compared to other races... It's not like Jews have been the only group of people that has been slaved, hunted, prosecuted or whatever more. Let it be clear that I'm not defending any ideology, I'm just saying not even Jews are 'superior' not based on anything. You seem to be mixing up Hitler's ideology and Darwinian theory, although I'm sure you are familiar with the fact that Hitler simply took the things he could (ab)use.
When I'm honest, I often think Jews are acting rather strange in Israel right now, considering what they do to the Palestinians vs. what they have been through in World War II, and I'm saying this eventhough there's Jewish blood in my family. I find it very unfunny to hear that some (emphasis on 'some' here) Jewish people consider themselves to be superior to others, (not meant to anyone personal at all)
Cheers
Posted By: Robotronic
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/14/07 12:55
Quote:
The Koran is just lifting up another example of violence as good again. When violence is not good.
I wonder about this guy, George Washington. Do you think, he was a Muslim (maybe even some kind of Imam or Grand Ayatollah)?
I mean this guy picked up arms in his jihad for independence!
Against the British empire!!!
Now, that you have explained all this to me, I think the inspiration for his disobedient behaviour can only come from the Qur´an.
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/14/07 16:20
lol Now I've heard everything. George Washington a muslim? HAha!
The revolutionary war was about taxes and patriotism, not about killing the Brits as infidels.
Economic?
But Bin Laden is a rich man and comes from rich family in Saudi Arabia.
Why does he attack us then?
There's lots of poor christians in poverty all over the world.
I'm trying to understand the logic in this statement, that's all.
Hi Laffer,
No, I was just trying to make you laugh and add some humor.
LOL The point was, they don't exist because they were conquered by radicals a long time ago.
Now I've heard everything. George Washington a muslim? HAha!The revolutionary war was about taxes and patriotism, not about killing the Brits as infidels.
Quote:
The point is that fanatism has nothing to do neither with religion nor race rather with economic situation
Economic?
But Bin Laden is a rich man and comes from rich family in Saudi Arabia.
Why does he attack us then?
There's lots of poor christians in poverty all over the world.
I'm trying to understand the logic in this statement, that's all.
Quote:
Are you like... an idiot?
Hi Laffer,
No, I was just trying to make you laugh and add some humor.
LOL
The point was, they don't exist because they were conquered by radicals a long time ago.
Posted By: fogman
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/14/07 16:33
Quote:
I simply don't see thousands of armed christians killing people in the name of their God.
The first world war... (god with us)
Nothern Ireland...
The crusades...
The colonies in africa...
G.W. Bush... (usa, the state of god)
"In god we trust!" - Maybe we should better trust ourself and our common sense?
-Because actually no religion, nation or race knows everything. It´s just a lot of (but not only) arrogance and hypocrisy.
-Because we are god. All together. All muslems, hindus, atheists and christians. All plants and animals. The stars and planets. Every single atom. Everything is a part of it.
-Because it sounds nice and logical, or what do you mean?
Sorry for the bad english, I can´t really say what I mean...
Posted By: Kinji_2007
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/14/07 18:18
"I can't see any reason to assume ANY race would be superior to another and I really mean ANY"
Not superior. Just at one time the group of people you are talking about was Gods chosen. :-) Notice I said at one time. I dont think they are chosen at all any more. I think they are in fact tough.. considering the things they have done since 1948 WITHOUT the help of God.
O_O Maybe I should have said all that in a seperate topic.. I can feel my fellow Christians eye-balling me. lol
Not superior. Just at one time the group of people you are talking about was Gods chosen. :-) Notice I said at one time. I dont think they are chosen at all any more. I think they are in fact tough.. considering the things they have done since 1948 WITHOUT the help of God.
O_O Maybe I should have said all that in a seperate topic.. I can feel my fellow Christians eye-balling me. lol
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/14/07 19:38
Quote:
The first world war... (god with us)
Yes, but aren't peoples motives important? Or should we ignore that?
Did the Germans kill the british, because they were infidels or non-believers in WW1?
Did Hitler proclaim a "HOLY WAR" in WW2? No, he did not.
Does Bush proclaim a "HOLY WAR" now? No, he does not.
Yet, muslims do this all the time and nobody cares.
Bin Laden and Hamas, they all say they kill the infidels, but you guys say they do not. ?
What? Do you understand their ideas and reasoning?
The motive of a nation or individual means a lot?
These people kill others, because the Koran tells them to do it, but you guys say they kill for bush or for poverty, but that is not what they SAY.
Why don't you guys listen to them and their writings?
Okay, so sorry to upset everybody's "apple carts of ideas".
I have a game to program and I gotta go.
GOD is calling me to go program for Him.
But really guys, get your head out of the sand for once?
Bye...
Posted By: AlbertoT
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/14/07 19:54
[quote
Just go to Mexico or the Phillipines, Africa, South America, Romania, there are plenty of christians living in third world conditions
You forgot Brazil
These countries have the highest rate of criminality in the world
If I am not wrong Mexico have the record of number of murders per habitant
Do you not seriously see any connection , criminality \ poverty ?
Religous fanatism is simply a different form of criminality but the root is the same
Just go to Mexico or the Phillipines, Africa, South America, Romania, there are plenty of christians living in third world conditions
You forgot Brazil
These countries have the highest rate of criminality in the world
If I am not wrong Mexico have the record of number of murders per habitant
Do you not seriously see any connection , criminality \ poverty ?
Religous fanatism is simply a different form of criminality but the root is the same
Posted By: fogman
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/14/07 20:00
Quote:
Does Bush proclaim a "HOLY WAR" now? No, he does not.
If you ask me, then yes, he does:
-He says (like you do) fanatics = muslims. But this is not true.
-He has defined the "axis of evil" and he will fight against it
-Axis of evil = fanatics = muslims, this is what Bush says
-Everyone that does not share this thoughts, is an enemy for Bush
So I can indeed say that Bush tries to force a holy war between christians and muslims.
Quote:
Bin Laden and Hamas, they all say they kill the infidels, but you guys say they do not. ?
What? Do you understand their ideas and reasoning?
Here you got the point: Bin Laden and the Hamas are not muslim. They are just terrorists.
fanatic muslim != muslim...
Posted By: Kinji_2007
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/14/07 20:30
I think Bush and Bin Laden both need a spanking. ;-) I think Bush may have been picked last during kick-ball at recess.. thus the "little man jump on the world" attitude. Bin Laden, of course his mother never spanked him for flying his kite to close to buildings.. thus the deranged ideas.
Muslims and some "so-called" Christians alike have violent and hateful ways. Lets get over the whole religion thing and look beyond it. If you like hurting, killing, murder, etc.. you are not even close to being a good person and I can assure you that you are far from the will of God. I do think IMO that the Koran teaches some very harsh things thus the mental-muslims that you call terrorists are just a product of their teachings.
Seeing both sides I can understand why they would like to slaughter the US now. Bush has done a fine job generating hate towards the US. We butt-in on any other country we choose. We can have any amount of nuclear weapons we choose.. yet we are bold enough to tell who can and cannot have them in other countries. To this day I cannot grasp how we started looking for Bin Laden and got stcuk in Iraq shoving a new Gov at them. IMO, if Bush was a Christian he would take those billions of dollars he has been spending and focus more on hungry childeren in the states... shelter for the homeless and so on. I know << rambling. Just dont put the name "Bush" in a conversation about Christianity. :-)
For the record, I have had some awesome Muslim friends. They're not ALL crazy. lol
And yes, Bush is pushing a war not just with Muslims.. but with anyone that looks at him the wrong way. I would hate to see the outcome if someone from China or North Korea slapped him. O_O I think I would have to move.
Muslims and some "so-called" Christians alike have violent and hateful ways. Lets get over the whole religion thing and look beyond it. If you like hurting, killing, murder, etc.. you are not even close to being a good person and I can assure you that you are far from the will of God. I do think IMO that the Koran teaches some very harsh things thus the mental-muslims that you call terrorists are just a product of their teachings.
Seeing both sides I can understand why they would like to slaughter the US now. Bush has done a fine job generating hate towards the US. We butt-in on any other country we choose. We can have any amount of nuclear weapons we choose.. yet we are bold enough to tell who can and cannot have them in other countries. To this day I cannot grasp how we started looking for Bin Laden and got stcuk in Iraq shoving a new Gov at them. IMO, if Bush was a Christian he would take those billions of dollars he has been spending and focus more on hungry childeren in the states... shelter for the homeless and so on. I know << rambling. Just dont put the name "Bush" in a conversation about Christianity. :-)
Quote:
-He says (like you do) fanatics = muslims. But this is not true.
-He has defined the "axis of evil" and he will fight against it
-Axis of evil = fanatics = muslims, this is what Bush says
-Everyone that does not share this thoughts, is an enemy for Bush
So I can indeed say that Bush tries to force a holy war between christians and muslims.
For the record, I have had some awesome Muslim friends. They're not ALL crazy. lol
And yes, Bush is pushing a war not just with Muslims.. but with anyone that looks at him the wrong way. I would hate to see the outcome if someone from China or North Korea slapped him. O_O I think I would have to move.
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/14/07 21:29
Quote:
Muslims and some "so-called" Christians alike have violent and hateful ways. Lets get over the whole religion thing and look beyond it. If you like hurting, killing, murder, etc.. you are not even close to being a good person and I can assure you that you are far from the will of God.
Yes, but why do you insist on believing that Muslim fanatics are a direct result of their religion, but Christian fanatics are not? That's really nonsense.
Quote:
I do think IMO that the Koran teaches some very harsh things thus the mental-muslims that you call terrorists are just a product of their teachings.
The Quran is very comparable to the bible, both the old and new testament, not just the names of important biblical persons are practically identical, also a lot of stories, and as we all know the old testament contains some rather bloody and violent scenes too. With comments on women, slaves and what more, right?
Same as the bible though, the Quran doesn't teach anyone to become a terrorist at all. You don't become a terrorist by believing in the Islam, that's ridiculous.
Quote:
So I can indeed say that Bush tries to force a holy war between christians and muslims.
Indeed, infact Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell and Bush himself have already made statements which confirm this. Rumsfeld: "we came as conquerers ... uuh, we didn't came as conquerers". I don't think he made a mistake in his speech there,
Cheers
Posted By: AlbertoT
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/14/07 22:27
Quote:
I think Bush and Bin Laden both need a spanking. ;-)
Well if you mean that America or at least a part of it should be put on the same level of the terrorim than I dont follow you
I repeat , in my opinion terrorism has nothing to do with religion rather with social and economic situation of some countries
That said, if someone tries to attack me or my family I dont care if this guy have had an unhappy childhood
Posted By: Kinji_2007
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/14/07 23:33
Quote:
Yes, but why do you insist on believing that Muslim fanatics are a direct result of their religion, but Christian fanatics are not? That's really nonsense.
The Koran does in fact teach violent things. As a follower of Christ.. start at Matthew and show me examples of any teaching that would push someone to be violent. Even if you could I am sure it would be taken completely out of context. :-) Ran_Man said things in a harsh way but he was right in some points he made.
Quote:
"Fight those who neither believe in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, and do not embrace the religion of the truth, being among those who have been given the Book (Bible and the Torah), until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humiliated." (Surah 9:29)
Quote:
"...O Prophet, urge the believers to fight. If there are twenty patient men among you, you shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred, they shall overcome a thousand, for they are a nation who do not understand." (Surah 8:65)
I am not debating Islam. No need, I know they are wrong and anyone that is atheist cannot give much insight on the matter. heh
They are a product of the book they read. I would suggest that everyone here, even the guy that claims to be a lukewarm Muslim read the Koran a bit. No offense.
Quote:
The Quran is very comparable to the bible, both the old and new testament, not just the names of important biblical persons are practically identical
I agree 100%. In fact, I think Mohammad was interested in being a Christian before meditation clouded his mind. :-) He heard the stories, read about them.. he simply knew. In knowing.. around 600 years after Jesus died.. Mohammad in his great mind twisted the storie and told it the way he wanted. Did he have a vision that made all this clear? lol The guy should have prayed a bit more before writing a novel. Again, no offense.
Quote:
and as we all know the old testament contains some rather bloody and violent scenes too. With comments on women, slaves and what more, right?
If I were living in 800BC I would be a bit concerned. There was a harsh law back then. Law was created for the lawless. Take prison for example.. there is strict rules there. Why? To govern the people that reside there. We know stories of the good guys and a few back in the OT. The bad outnumber the good by far. I would say that God knew what was best. If harsh law was needed at that time then thats the way it had to be. Jesus changed things in a changing world.. so far it has worked out perfect. I am just wondering when Mohammad is going to come back and make a "NT" for the Muslims. heh Tell them that maybe he was just joking about all the killing. lol
On one hand we have a guy that says "Kill the infidel!" and on the other we have Jesus turning the other cheek.
Quote:
Same as the bible though, the Quran doesn't teach anyone to become a terrorist at all. You don't become a terrorist by believing in the Islam, that's ridiculous.
You misunderstand. The violent teachings make it ok to use any means needed to kill. Seek death for allah? I am sure there are some peaceful Muslims but we are not seeing them in the news. We see terrorists, Jihad and so on. All you have to do is turn on the TV or read the paper. It is full of violence.. when your not seeing our twisted president then you are seeing more footage of Muslims.
As always, good to chat with ya PHeMoX. :-D
Posted By: Robotronic
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/15/07 10:58
Quote:
.. start at Matthew and show me examples of any teaching that would push someone to be violent.
That´s an easy exercise, even if I don´t like these silly arguments:
"Think not that I am come to send peace: I came not to send peace but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
(Luke 22:36)
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
(Luke 19:27. In a parable, but spoken of favorably.)
The burning of unbelievers during the Inquisition was based on the words of Jesus:
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)
If anything, Islam introduced a modest form of tolerance against people of other faith. The prophet, for example, explicitly stated, that it is not allowed to kill non-Muslims in Muslim societies:
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From the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Al-Awsat by Al-Tabarani, we find regarding those non-Muslims living in the Islamic state,
The Messenger of Allah (saas) said, "One who kills a non-Muslim person under protection (Arabic: dhimmi) will not even smell the fragrance of Paradise."
Also from the Sunnah, specifically in a report from Al-Khatib, we find that the Messenger of Allah (saas) also said:
Whoever hurts a non-Muslim person under protection, I am his adversary, and I shall be an adversary to him on the Day of Resurrection.
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The violent teachings make it ok to use any means needed to kill.
That´s nonsense. Mohammed gave rules for war. Centuries later Thomas Aquinas gave rules for war too. If someone follows the Qur´an it is explicitly not okay to use "any means needed" or to start wars, simply inorder to kill "infidels".
For example - from the Qur´an:
[17:33] Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)
[22:39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
From the Sunnah:
[4:52:257] Narrated 'Abdullah: During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah's Apostle disapproved the killing of women and children.
You will find, that not all people, who call themselves Muslims do live up to these standards: women and children are killed, hostages are murdered.
But these actions are in contradiction with the Qur´an and the teaching of Mohammed.
To claim something different - contrary to the evidence - can only embolden the terrorists.
Posted By: Kinji_2007
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/15/07 23:23
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That´s an easy exercise, even if I don´t like these silly arguments:
Not arguments. lol Just a simple conversation.
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"Think not that I am come to send peace: I came not to send peace but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)
Read the rest of His lecture. You cannot take one verse and expect to understand what He is talking about.
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"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Do you understand where they were going and what happens next? He didnt command them to do anything violent at all. Keep following the story and I can assure you that the Lord makes it ok. ;-)
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"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)
The branches are burned. I cannot possibly imagine burning someone over that scripture and who says the people doing the burning is a real Christian? Jesus taught above all to LOVE. Turn the other cheek. Do good to them that treat you bad and so on.
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One who kills a non-Muslim person under protection (Arabic: dhimmi) will not even smell the fragrance of Paradise."
What about a non-muslim thats not under protection?
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You will find, that not all people, who call themselves Muslims do live up to these standards: women and children are killed, hostages are murdered.
By saying that you know full well that anyone doing horrible things such as...
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The burning of unbelievers during the Inquisition
Is not at all a Christian. They just claim to be. The Bible says we will "know them by their fruits".
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/16/07 05:59
There's no sense talking to him.
He's too busy defending his "God of War". It's all Bush's fault.
Hmmmn, I agree.
The Koran tells us very plainly below who to fight against.
But, you have to read it.
It is plain and clear, yes?
So, you are supposed to go around and FIGHT against those not following the "religion of truth".
That could be Jews, christians, buddhist or whatever.
It could be a Sunni or a Shia muslim.
If they ain't following the good ole "RELIGION OF TRUTH", then you're supposed to slaughter them.
Just read it? Is it too complicated? or does everybody choose to be blind?
He's too busy defending his "God of War". It's all Bush's fault.
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[ The prophet, for example, explicitly stated, that it is not allowed to kill non-Muslims in Muslim societies:
Hmmmn, I agree.
The Koran tells us very plainly below who to fight against.
But, you have to read it.
It is plain and clear, yes?
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Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth , until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son
of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! ...
The Quran, Sura 9:28-31
So, you are supposed to go around and FIGHT against those not following the "religion of truth".
That could be Jews, christians, buddhist or whatever.
It could be a Sunni or a Shia muslim.
If they ain't following the good ole "RELIGION OF TRUTH", then you're supposed to slaughter them.
Just read it? Is it too complicated? or does everybody choose to be blind?
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/16/07 10:07
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Ran_Man said things in a harsh way but he was right in some points he made.
Actually he wasn't, but you believe him anyways, that's something different.
There's often a difference between what people say is written in the Quran and what's really in there. As said by the Christian defenders here, it's too easy to take quotes out of context and claim the religion is violent. Both are actually equal as violent.
Besides, I don't see why the old testament suddenly "isn't really part off" Christianity .. that's, uhhm back paddling at best and off course it's nonsense.
Cheers
Posted By: Kinji_2007
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/16/07 10:37
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Besides, I don't see why the old testament suddenly "isn't really part off" Christianity .. that's, uhhm back paddling at best and off course it's nonsense.
Its our history. If you are following Christ I say "follow Him". That begins in Matthew. ;-)
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/16/07 10:45
It's a text in a book actually.
Cheers
Cheers
Posted By: Robotronic
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/16/07 16:30
@ RanMan
Unlike Jesus, Mohammed was not only a prophet but also a political and military leader. For this reason you can completely misunderstand his general message if you only rely on some isolated suras, because they may or may not have a general or absolute quality.
The passage from the sura (9:28-31), that you quoted, refers to the "campaign to Tabuk" and it has - according to Muslim sources - the following historical context:
source
So, there was apparently a very strong reason to go to war at this time. And don´t tell me, that Christian nations today - or 1000 years ago - would have "turned the other cheek" here.
@ Kinji:
Of course it´s unlikely that Jesus - if we look at his attitude as a whole - would have approved of the terrible things, that were committed in his name.
About this question:
Please see my first message on this topic. I could only repeat myself here.
Unlike Jesus, Mohammed was not only a prophet but also a political and military leader. For this reason you can completely misunderstand his general message if you only rely on some isolated suras, because they may or may not have a general or absolute quality.
The passage from the sura (9:28-31), that you quoted, refers to the "campaign to Tabuk" and it has - according to Muslim sources - the following historical context:
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The Campaign to Tabuk was the result of conflict with the Roman Empire, that had started even before the conquest of Makkah. One of the missions sent after the Treaty of Hudaibiyah to different parts of Arabia visited the clans which lived in the northern areas adjacent to Syria. The majority of these people were Christians, who were under the influence of the Roman Empire. Contrary to all the principles of the commonly accepted international law, they killed fifteen members of the delegation near a place known as Zat-u-Talah (or Zat-i-Itlah). Only Ka'ab bin Umair Ghifari, the head of the delegation, succeeded in escaping and reporting the sad incident. Besides this, Shurahbll bin Amr, the Christian governor of Busra, who was directly under the Roman Caesar, had also put to death Haritli bin Umair, the ambassador of the Holy Prophet, who had been sent to him on a similar minion.
source
So, there was apparently a very strong reason to go to war at this time. And don´t tell me, that Christian nations today - or 1000 years ago - would have "turned the other cheek" here.
@ Kinji:
Of course it´s unlikely that Jesus - if we look at his attitude as a whole - would have approved of the terrible things, that were committed in his name.
About this question:
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What about a non-muslim thats not under protection?
Please see my first message on this topic. I could only repeat myself here.
Posted By: gunplay
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/16/07 18:05
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But, saying that fundamentalist Christianity is dangerous like fundamentalist Islam is, well that is nonsense.
People always seem to forget that the Ku Klux Klan is a fundamentalist Christian group. I would consider them to be very dangerous. Evil people will do evil things, regardless of what religion they claim to practice.
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I was just trying to make you laugh and add some humor.
im sure Ran Man is a nice guy but most of what you write makes you sound ignorant and bigoted. But then everything is open to interpretation (much like all the holy books in question)
Posted By: Ran Man
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/16/07 19:14
@ Gunplay
I like humor and you can see some in my new game screenshot below.
http://www.noahsadventures.com/images/dance7.jpg
I'm not ignorant at all, but I think you guys are missing the point.
Robotronic has pointed out lots of good and valid things.
Thank you for that.
He points out that certain verses are for certain time frames in the Koran. He correctly points out that the Sura 9 passage was for the ancient Romans.
I do agree with him and believe that also.
So, when the Koran says in Sura 9 for example:
"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them" Well that was also meant for an ancient people too.
The only problem is...
It does not actually say that in the Koran. The targets of violence is not NAMED in the Koran, and therefore is left up to the reader and whoever comments on it.
In contrast, the bible does name its targets in the book, so no commentator can say otherwise.
I'm not comparing the two religions, but only talking the difference in the holy books.
I just think it is interesting, that's all.
Isn't it interesting when a holy book says "KILL THEM!" over and over and it is left up to commentators to decide who THEM actually is?
Interesting huh?
Oh well, nice talking with you guys...
I like humor and you can see some in my new game screenshot below.
http://www.noahsadventures.com/images/dance7.jpg
I'm not ignorant at all, but I think you guys are missing the point.
Robotronic has pointed out lots of good and valid things.
Thank you for that.
He points out that certain verses are for certain time frames in the Koran. He correctly points out that the Sura 9 passage was for the ancient Romans.
I do agree with him and believe that also.
So, when the Koran says in Sura 9 for example:
"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them" Well that was also meant for an ancient people too.
The only problem is...
It does not actually say that in the Koran. The targets of violence is not NAMED in the Koran, and therefore is left up to the reader and whoever comments on it.
In contrast, the bible does name its targets in the book, so no commentator can say otherwise.
I'm not comparing the two religions, but only talking the difference in the holy books.
I just think it is interesting, that's all.
Isn't it interesting when a holy book says "KILL THEM!" over and over and it is left up to commentators to decide who THEM actually is?
Interesting huh?
Oh well, nice talking with you guys...
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/16/07 22:14
Don't worry ran_man, I kinda like your humor and style, it cracks me up every time. Downside is I can't take most of your post serious at all. Sure, it's quite clear when you're serious and when not, but you and being serious is rather rare.
Even if the Quran generalizes more, perhaps this is solely out of respect for it's enemies? Perhaps names are not that important? Perhaps the names were forgotten? Perhaps the names in the Christian bible were made up? Perhaps the writers didn't want to copy the bible exactly?
Cheers
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In contrast, the bible does name its targets in the book, so no commentator can say otherwise.
Even if the Quran generalizes more, perhaps this is solely out of respect for it's enemies? Perhaps names are not that important? Perhaps the names were forgotten? Perhaps the names in the Christian bible were made up? Perhaps the writers didn't want to copy the bible exactly?
Cheers
Posted By: AlbertoT
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/24/07 22:36
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I know that Qoran accepts Jesus as one of the prophets but I dont suppose that Qoran claims also that all the stories about Jesus are true
Otherwise Qoran should recognize Jesus as a prophet greater than Mohammed , who, as far as I know , was not supposed to make miracles
I quote myself
I asked an islamic highly educated person this question
According to Koran, the prophet Jesus was given the gift to make miracles
Prophet Mohamed made one only miracle, he splitted the moon in two parts
However Mohamed has been given the greatest gift, the koran , so he must be considered the greatest prophet
Posted By: Blattsalat
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/25/07 00:11
the difference between the koran and the bible is that jesus is a prhopet like mohammed and not the son of god. he did not raise from the dead.
the basic ideas, his believes and what he decided to be right or wrong are identical. and having this in mind its obscure and sick that people kill other poeple in the name of one book or the other.
if you qoute either the bible or the koran, you will have to explain the context you ripped the parts out of. Just pasting one or two sentences does not work.
Writing "i pulled my gun and then i shot him" and "After he raised his gun to shot me. I pulled my gun and then i shot him" are two totaly different worlds.
any kind of true religion is based on respect.
its not a rat race who has the better god, or book, or religion, or stories.
Making all other religions look worse wont make yours better.
cheers
the basic ideas, his believes and what he decided to be right or wrong are identical. and having this in mind its obscure and sick that people kill other poeple in the name of one book or the other.
if you qoute either the bible or the koran, you will have to explain the context you ripped the parts out of. Just pasting one or two sentences does not work.
Writing "i pulled my gun and then i shot him" and "After he raised his gun to shot me. I pulled my gun and then i shot him" are two totaly different worlds.
any kind of true religion is based on respect.
its not a rat race who has the better god, or book, or religion, or stories.
Making all other religions look worse wont make yours better.
cheers
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/25/07 02:14
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any kind of true religion is based on respect.
A lot of religious fanatics have little respect for different beliefs, kind of ironic if you ask me... it's "practice what you preach", right?
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its not a rat race who has the better god, or book, or religion, or stories.
It should be about truth, but instead no-one is really interested in evidence. An honest person can't claim (to know) God exists, simple.
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Making all other religions look worse wont make yours better.
It depends on the arguments used, but I suppose you are right.
Cheers
Posted By: Kinji_2007
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/25/07 02:22
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I quote myself
I asked an islamic highly educated person this question
According to Koran, the prophet Jesus was given the gift to make miracles
Prophet Mohamed made one only miracle, he splitted the moon in two parts
However Mohamed has been given the greatest gift, the koran , so he must be considered the greatest prophet
I am only curious. People that were alive and heard Jesus' teachings were still around when the Gospels went into circulation. Some knew what Jesus taught and said. If they were all lies dont you think someone would have stood up and said so? What documents do we have from anyone in history that claim that they heard Jesus and the writings in the Bible as we know it are incorrect? Were the Disciples all lying? Maybe they were crazy. What about Paul? Surly he was the craziest. I want to base my faith on as much information as possible. I choose the majority. In the case of Mohammad, he had a vision. No body can write about him claiming he did great things beyond human grasp. As Christians we have the Bible written by other people concerning Christ, we have pagan sources to know He existed, we have other facts that lead us to believe He died as recorded.. in the OT you can imagine the list I can make for you. In short.. what other writings could you possibly put your soul on the balance for other than the Bible?
What does the Qu'ran have to offer? Mohammad.. has he done anything that ancient writings and MANY people boast of? (that claim to have seen him or have known of him in their day) I am not knocking the Muslims yet I am saying they are wrong. So that they understand as well as you.. they are 100% wrong. Look at the Bible and koran.. which fits morally? Beyond that.. look at history. Who vouched for Mohammad? Who seen him do things that we cannot explain? Does anyone have any proof at all that he is in fact the one sent from God? Or as they say "Allah". For the record.. I am not downing a religion, I am simply pleading to the un-believers to make the best choice possible and to look at ALL the facts. Dont walk blind, thus in the end your blindness is not an excuse. I know what the atheist think, I know what the Muslims think, I know what the catholics think.. the baptists, even the apostolics. Look for one man that has taught truth.. peace.. love and you find Jesus. What better way to show it then to die for the sins of man? If you claim He is not what He actually is then you must admit that to die in a bad way for another is virtuious. He died for us all. Christian sources as well as non-Christian sources agree to the method of His death. What has Mohammod done other than to share a vision? Not down-grading... just asking.
Posted By: PHeMoX
Re: Any Muslims here? - 04/25/07 10:10
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What does the Qu'ran have to offer? Mohammad.. has he done anything that ancient writings and MANY people boast of?
Right, religion should be all about boasting in some ancient writings ...
You've probably never read some Asian ancient writings about their religious leaders and the boasting they did. As long as people were able to write, people have been writing about Gods, I don't see this as evidence in favor of any God or Gods, but at least we can state that if anything, Christianity definitely wasn't the first. You seem to vaguely suggest that before Jesus there was no way of knowing about the "real" God. These kind of claims obviously go beyond 'boasting in ancient literature', you're simply convinced of Christianity, don't forget your huge bias.
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If they were all lies dont you think someone would have stood up and said so?
Perhaps this actually happened. There's no way in knowing this. Besides, if Jesus really was who he is said to have been, then we really really really must assume that ancient people should have been writing more about him. That didn't happen as far as we can tell. In fact, most so called 'historical references' are extremely vague and could mean anyone, apart from the lack of other more physical evidence,
Cheers