I Hate WED

I really do. The more I work with it, the more I dread firing it up and having to do ANYTHING in it. Seriously. Conitec, if you really want to bring this engine into the future, please do something about WED along the way. I mean, we all have to jump into WED at one time or another if for no other reason than to compile a level, attach behaviors to entities, etc. And that means we all have to use WED at some point. So why does it have to be such a pain in the you-know-what?

The UI is out of date (and bringing it up to date has been promised for literally years). The view ports are slow and clunky to get around in (takes some cues from some modern 3D software to see how it should function). Drag-duplicating still shifts items slightly out of position making snapping to the grid or other objects a pain at times (a problem that has been there since the creation of WED, has been reported numerous times and yet no fix has ever really surfaced).

I could go on and on, but I simply do not like working in WED. I am in the process of helping with a level that needs to be constructed in WED and every time I pop open the application I cringe. The mere thought of having to spend a few hours in WED causes me to want to beat my head against the wall (since that is preferable).

Please, for the love of what-ever, dump the current WED and replace it with something completely different ... something that actually works (and not that GED thing that only half seems to work).

Ugh!

I don't. But that's okay. I'm surprised the Rants forum hasn't been graced with a WED-focussed thread yet, so good on you.

Jibb

Everyone here feels your pain. I gave up on WED years ago. Now I load levels on my own through code and have been (before my most recent contract work) have been making my own simple level editor to load in models and save a list of objects.

Has anyone ever noticed how hard it is to find WED screenshots on the interwebs? From time to time I need one, but google only comes up with really really small "screenshots".

And you didnt share it, shame on you

JustSid,

If you need some WED screenshots (and I am supposing you need them with some level loaded in them?) then fire me a PM. I have a few old ones laying around from some work I did, I think.

To Everyone Else,

I try to do most of my "modern" level building in modo, export and then bring into WED. However, I get some freelance work from time to time that requires something to be done in WED. In this case, the project seemed pretty simple: assemble a level from parts provided. And, yes, this is fairly simple, but WED turns a simple task that should take a day at most into a nightmare that takes multiple days and provides me with unlimited opportunities to consume large amounts of Tylenol.

WED has some annoying things about it (the awful grid-snapping system comes to mind). But for the most part it serves its purpose adequately.

No, I am afraid it does not. It's view ports, as pointed out previously, are incredibly slow. Navigation in them is horrible (when compared to other editors or to 3D applications). Snapping (which is fairly essential) is terrible (as you pointed out). The visual quality of the view ports is equally poor. You cannot easily manipulate items in the left-side list (only one item there can be selected at a time, moved at a time, etc).

No, WED is far from adequate, imo.

talking about the snapping.... is it completely glitchy to everyone else (since we all already know its not handy as it is) Like snapping will take an object that is snapped and give it some random unprecise number most of the time and I have no idea why.

Texturing blocks is a pain too. You build your whole level with default brick supposed to be the parts that do not get rendered, but you forgot to activate the "none" flag of the texture beforehand.

Have fun retexturing every individual surface of each block.

I'm doing my levels with WED, too, and I like the block-approach.
What I really hate is the low speed of the view ports, too, and especially selecting something (blocks, surfaces, entities) is a pain.

My WED crashes regularly if I have the latest view drivers loaded. It just closes or freezes, giving me no chance to save. So I have to choose the oldest, worst drivers from the list in GXL Properties. They actually run a bit faster than the newer ones (presumably because they're "doing" less), but the 3D view looks terrible--and drastically different from the compiled level, which makes trying to select textures that work well together very difficult, as in the compiled level often the brightness or colors are all wrong whereas it looked fine in the WED 3D view.

I can mostly live with WED... but selecting blocks and entities is really really really annoying as soon as your levels get bigger.

I hate it to work with WED it's to slow! when i move something i always see ligth and darkblue ....... boxes! I hope the new WED will be better!
xxxxxxx

Nobody complaint about messed up texture alignments. Is this resolved?
I quit using WED with blocks years ago because of this. I only use it for certain projects to place models. That's it.

You can change the thing with the blue boxes in WED preferences. Also, you can choose different video drivers and settings to increase the performance

Rondidon, the screenshots of your game look pretty good.
Did you do all that level building in WED?
Does this mean that texture alignment is reliable?

Yes, the levels are 100% designed in WED (geometry, texturing etc.) and MED for terrain and models (file conversions, model texturing). I import most models as level geometry in WED.
Texturing is no problem in WED. It used to be in A6, but in latest A7 it´s okay.

Open your settings. Set the rendering method to a different DLL. Problem solved.


Change your key bindings! I set mine up to be a standard WASD control scheme. You should do the same.


You're right, snapping really is a problem. I find myself constantly repositioning unruly vertices and edges all the time. That's the only thing that really bothers me about WED, though.


You can see well enough to do what you need to do, though. This isn't really much of a problem.


Now that's a real problem that I never thought about. Still, I've never had to use that list, so it doesn't bother me too much.

"You cannot easily manipulate items in the left-side list"

You can select multiple items when you hold "strg", like in any other app.
Then you can set flags for all objects for example.

For duplication offset: You can set it in the preferences to 0.

Sorry, but for 50% of the complains you get a RTFM from me.
But at the bottom line you´re right, there are some annoying little... surprises in WED.

I´m crying out loud on a regulary basis, too.

I was talking about the list on the left-hand side. If you want to, for example, move several items into or out of a group, then you have to do that one at a time. You cannot simply select multiple items and drag them to where you want them. I know all about selecting multiple items in a view port.



Again, you misunderstand. I did not complain about the offset settings that you can set under Preferences (even though this doesn't always work all the time. Mine are set to zero and sometimes a copy/pasted item will still be offset by a margin to one side or the other, etc). I was talking about using the move tool with SHIFT to duplicate an item. When using snapping, the newly duplicated item may be off by a quant (GameStudio's internal unit of measure) and thus prevent accurate snapping unless you turn snapping down to some very low number like 1 or 2. I normally have snapping set to 8 or 16 quants for most of the work I do.



Sorry, but for 50% of your post I would have to say RTFP (Read the F***ing Post).



No, the problem is not solved. The view ports are slow no matter which DLL you choose for rendering. Again, compare what is going on in WED's view ports to other game editors (Unity's comes to mind) and/or 3D applications like modo, MAX, etc. In modo, for example, I an manipulate over 9 million polygons in real time. In WED? Forget it. I created a town level in modo and was able to zoom through the level in its view ports without issue. In WED? Slow as syrup. It didn't matter which DLL I chose for display.



It's not just the key bindings, though changing them can help. It's more how they camera controls work. They are clunky and difficult. Again, compare the controls to other 3D related applications.



Yes, it is a problem. The 3D view, for example, needs to give enough information so that the end-user has a pretty good idea of what the level is going to look like BEFORE going into the build process. If I have to waste 10 minutes (an example only) waiting while WED compiles the level only to find out that I need to readjust the level's ambient value, readjust the sun lighting and position, readjust static and dynamic lighting, etc, then what good did the 3D view port do for me? Other 3D editors and 3D modelers give me views that are pretty damned close to what you get in the final game.

Sometimes what you see in the views is NOT what you get in the final rendered game. Gaps that show up in the game geometry may not show up in the view port (this mainly affects BSP geomtry, but its there from time to time). I don't consider this "good enough".

The wireframe view of the 2D view port is substandard and it makes it difficult to work with from time to time, especially with complex levels. Other 3D applications have some methods of dealing with this. WED does not.

Frankly, the editor is fairly unreliable. It takes too much experimentation to get the job done and, as a result, a lot of time is wasted working in and/or around WED.

No, I maintain that WED stinks and that it is not "good enough," it does not work "well enough." But that's my position (and, apparently, the position of others here as well ).

i actually had nightmares from WED. i find it totally unusable and haven't touched it since years.

WED is heavily based on Worldcraft and Valve Hammer Editor, which shared/share many of WED's problems (all except for the awful gridsnapping system). My opinion: if it was/is good enough for valve, it's good enough for everyone else.

Nonetheless, nobody can deny that Gamestudio would be more attractive if it had a powerful, streamlined editor like all the other toolkits.

"Sorry, but for 50% of your post I would have to say RTFP"

Fair enough.

Glad you have a sense of humor! I was hoping my snarky post would not backfire.



Actually, WED was based on QOOLE. Here's a screen shot:



QOOLE was a third-party game editor made for Quake (and Quake related games). QOOLE stands for Quake Object Oriented Level Editor. I believe that Quake came out in 1996 or so. QOOLE was not far behind. Do we really want to be working with an editor that, for all intents and purposes, is over a decade old? Look at the UI image above! Has WED changed all that much? They updated the icons (twice, I think), but really nothing much has changed.

But WED is NOT based on Worldcraft/Hammer at all. Nope. Again, it is based on QOOLE. And even if it was, just because Worldcraft was adequate 15 years ago does NOT mean it is anywhere near adequate TODAY. I have a copy of 3D Studio MAX 2.5 laying around somewhere. Man, was that a sweet application (and expensive, too) back in the day. Not only is it a pain to get up and running on today's modern computers and OS's, but the application, once one of the best on the market, totally SUCKS by today's standards. It is clunky, lacking in features, slow as hell, visually underwhelming, and can't handle an appropriate amount of geometry, etc. Even today's free and inexpensive software run circles around that old "top of the line for the time" app. I will, in no wise, return to using that program (even with a gun to my head). Why should I have to settle for WED, based on an editor from even earlier (MAX 2.5 was around 1999, I think)?

Valve has come a long way since the days of Worldcraft/Hammer. I very much doubt that they would settle for using either tool in their studios today. I very much doubt that they would find the software "adequate" in any way, shape or form.

Oh, a Model A Ford was more than an "adequate" mode of travel in the early 1900's. And while it might be fun to take one for a spin from time to time, I am certainly not going to find it "adequate" for most of my daily needs requiring travel (not if I want to travel comfortably). So, yes, WED is quaint, a reminder of the past (and what a constant reminder it is!), but it is NOT a decent tool to use for TODAY.

Thanks, finally I can continue to work on my level with more than 1-2fps (using DX8A).

Hiya.

Yes, WED is a bit, uh, "long in the tooth". I'm not sure how it would work for A8, but what about 3D World Studio? It's up to 5.6 I believe, and no longer has the "working on it" note to the .wmb import/export capability. I just bought it on a whim, but haven't tried it out yet. I'll do a test to export and import to 3DGameStudio later.

I'd like to see Conitec get in touch with the guy who made the program "Freeworld3D" and collaborate on an import/export (or full-fledged 'create in Freeworld3D') capability. I bought that program a few years ago and LOVE how it handles terrain creation and it's potential for writing-in your own import/export using, IIRC, XML. Alas, the creator was working on his Doctorate and had to take a year or two off to focus on that. I'm not sure if he ever finished or came back to FW3D. *sigh* Too bad...such potential!

I had to buy a different terrain editor, so forked over the dough for GROME II. I am still *blown away* by it's capabilities! Now, if Conitec could get a full-on plug-in going with that! Or, better still, implement their render engine as well.... *eyes tear up and lower lip starts to quiver*...**angels sing and golden light beams down from the heavens**....

I tried some 3D World Studio Demo (with Darkbasic) and it was by far worse than WED! An atrocity.

Well.... Well....
You guys sure do whine a lot..... Hahaha...
One things's for sure...
It's good that a sense of humor isn't lacking here in the 3DGS forums...

But seriously... Could it be that you guys "Hate WED" because you don't use it enough to get used to it's quirks?
Or maybe you havn't spent enough time working with 3dsMax to get to the point where your really good working with true ortographic projection...
I'm a level builder... I love WED! It's that dam code that drives me absolultly in-frickin-sane.... (How's that for "Ranting"?)

Anyways... you are right that WED does have a few problems the worst of being... moving around...
But, there is always a "Work around"...
Have you ever thought of locating objects that are just used for "Go To Object"ing...
Just set them to invisible and passable and you can get around in very huge levels very quickly.
(A must have in my huge levels when WED moves as it does.)

So...all in all, I applaud JCL and his team...
They have come a long long way in the last 5 years... A8 - WED, Med and SED are wonderful tools...
We should never forget that such software was only a dream just some 15 or so years ago...

I do love to stir the pot now and again...
BTW JustSid...
Here's a shot from WED...

http://www.terrasame.com/Images/MarquetteWED.jpg

the problem is the last part... wed was not just a dream 15 years ago,WED is basically a 15 year old program with icon updates. 13 years ago very similar tools were used to build half life. as far as work around, the point is that you shouldnt need a bunch of work arounds just to make it work. I can design the same thing in blender in .01 the time it takes to make anything in wed, and yes I used to use WED constantly, but then i realized there were simply better tools out there.

I moved this to a new topic...

Please see:
"I love 3dgs BUT..."

i find the gamestudio template concept a bit questionable.

at the moment they are more like an example collection.

the templates also suffer from wed's poor gui and if the goal really is to allow non-programmers to create games then it would make a lot more sense to use a node based system or logic bricks similarly to the blender game engine. i looked into it a bit recently. it's quite amazing what you can do in it without writing a single line of code.

"it's a crying shame that there are files in it that are locked"

Can you evaluate this further?
I don´t have any problems to edit the scripts.
They are located in the include folder.
I´m free to copy them in my work folder to edit them like any other script.

Edit:
Ah, you mean the wrs? You don´t need it, you can use an own model for the car.

Not to be a party-pooper, but this thread is about WED (and, more specifically, why I/we hate it ). Can we move the discussion about GameStudio templates somewhere else?

Yes...
The car template .wrs is like Arrrrrrr....
Yes...
It is possable to switch the car model.... And, the cactus model... And the locked panels...
And...Yes... I'll move this and my comments to a new thread...
Thanks... I was waiting for that invite...
(I do love this site/forum/3DGS and lastly... WED!)

I've been using GameStudio since version 3.9. It was a DOOM-styled raycasting engine then. I've had a license of every release since that time. So, I think I've had enough time to work with WED. I've written tutorials on how to use WED, on work arounds, and many other WED related issues.



If WED operated to some degree like 3DS MAX, then I would be much happier. It does not. And so I am not happy with WED. But you know this already.



So am I. I build levels professionally. And I avoid WED as much as I can. It sucks.



But there shouldn't be. Not to the degree that we have to "work around." For me, and for most of my situations, my "work around" is to avoid WED when at all possible. That is not an acceptable work around.



Five years? GameStudio's been around a lot longer then that and, while GameStudio has come a long way, it has also remained stagnant in many areas ... the tools are one of them. WED and MED are about the worst tools there are for this sort of work. And don't get me started on MED. My god, get the free WINGS3D to use as a modeler instead. Conitec should dump MED altogether and just make it a tool to convert 3D geometry to GStudio's formats (which is basically what most people end up using it for anyway). Or, even better, dump MED and let WED do the importing/converting.



No it wasn't. As pointed out, QOOLE is about 15 years old and WED is based on QOOLE. And even if this were so, why should we live on a 15 year old dream? When it comes to software, a YEAR is an eternity. 15 years is death!

What level editors do you guys use? I feel that WED is a tedious program to use and I've been asking for alternative editors forever but no one can ever say anything other then blender.

Frankly, there aren't very many choices. At least not modern ones. WED does import .map files just fine, so if you like any of the old level editors that spit out the old MAP file format, then you can use one of them and import the level into WED. Frankly, I use regular 3D geometry for levels (instead of BSP) whenever I can and, thus, use a modeling program like modo (or, as some have already suggested to you, Blender). Back when building BSP levels, I would use the MAX2GS plugin and build my levels in MAX (following the rules of BSP) and export via the plugin directly to a format that GameStudio could use.

Hiya.

Q: What level editors do you guys use?

A: I generally use/d QuArK. I did just recently (a few days ago) purchase 3D World Studio. It's not bad overall, I really do like it's light mapping (even if it takes a coons age for decent sized levels), and it's terrain tool isn't too bad (limited, but still good enough for most base terrain).

In my "perfect world", QuArK would have the ability to import GROME II terrains/textures/objects, and I could do light mapping with something like gile[s] as some sort of PlugIn to QuArK. Of course, there would be a full A8 add-on for QuArK so I could build, assign behaviours, make paths, build and run from within QuArK.

Alas, my perfect world isn't going to happen unless I win the lottery. *crosses fingers*

For true 3D programs: I use XSI and Lightwave.

Grrr! my wed always crash after a short while and in the 2d windows i cant zoom near enoght!!!
xxxxxxx

Having to click "recreate views" in WED everytime i run my game in full screen. Its done the same on an old system with an NVIDIA GFX card and also on my new setup with ATI <- theres me thinking it was driver related problems .

Same for MED, when after playing games (running applications) in fullscreen mode, MED and WED views are stucked.

For most games, you dont even need WED.

The only thing where its really nessesary is when you build
"block" levels that have to be compiled (static light).
But since most games dont require it (using Model-based levels and shaders),
its a tool that can be fortunately bypassed.
Also WED should have supported an engine-rendering editor view like 10 years ago... the program reminds me
of these 50s American cars in Cuba, that get constanty
refitted.

For many demos I used my own leveleditor, used some external tileeditor or just generated the levelcontent by
script.

What I would want from a new WED is a better way to
organise elements. In an easy to manage tree with subfolders
and objectgroups, and extendable objectclasses.
Smart would be to base the levelformat completely on XML,
wich can be easily manipulated manually or by custom code.



MED I see as an intermediary or beginners tool.
For that its quite ok.

SED is relatively good for a custom IDE,
and can be bypassed easily if you dislike it.

yes an xml parser for tags would be beautiful.

Generally, Raw Development data (not the published/compiled files)
Should base on some generic fileformat.
XML is perfect for such description-tasks like a level.

Its easily extentable (furure proof), and offers the option to manually edit
the data.
(for example switching all textureA with TextureB, or changing file-paths, just
using a simple text-editor replace.)

The user ist not required to understand xml, when WED
uses it.