*** Is it so unreasonable to ask for cheap help?***

Can I name the number of ongoing Gamestudio projects under that premise? No, I cannot, and don't pay that much attention. But that's 3dgs.

I don't have enough fingers and toes to count games made otherwise that succeeded under those circumstances. And thats what I meant by the norm. Indie development in general, not 3dgs.

I don't think paying for work will quarantee a money making project any more than finding people to help for cheap or free. So equally, paying big bucks for models etc also can equate to vaporware. More so since you blew what little money you start with on overly pretty models and art instead of advertising/ marketing.

Just because people hate to give good prices to their fellow 3DGS users doesn't mean thats how the rest of the indie community does it.

I agree having someone live nearby helps a lot, but it's not necessary, obviously. Maybe for 3DGS it is, but I dunno why.

I think if a person looks in the showcase forums and did some research, you'd see a lot of the successful teams are spread out. So that's possible. Does everyone on those teams recieve a salary/wage to do the work? I don't think everyone does, though obviously a lot do.

Let's not forget the teams working on projects who don't post in the forums. There are those, So neither of us can say with 100% accuracy whats going on.

I see your points, but they're a bit too pessimistic for my taste. it IS possible to do pay after play. Theres over a decade of indie development backing this, and by definition is what indie development is. Working for the eventual fruits of your labor. It is possible. Not so far in 3DGS maybe, but thats my point. What makes us modelers, artists and level designers so great?

And if someone is 'too good' to join a team, and put in the hours, well they'd be the reason for failure if they joined a team. And maybe thatss why the failures you mentioned. I wouldnt suggest making free stuff for a project you know will go nowhere. But that doesnt mean you deserve top professional dollar for your work. Again, if a person is that good, why are they looking for work in forums instead of a fortune 500 company?

Because for all our talents, modelling, level design, art, programming, we are a dime a dozen. You don't want to work for free? Thats understandable. Too good to work for cheap? There's hundreds of people standing in line behind you that will. And they're out there because people (except here in the 3DGS forums) know that your name on a project is good advertisement. Your name gets out by doing work, not turning it down. To argue that the only way to get help is by paying big bucks is ludicrous.

And many people have cross project relationships... I model for your project, you level design for mine. Does anyone get paid? Nope. Not a dime will exchange hands until a profit is shown, yet everyone got the help they needed.

It's one thing to say "You may wish to bring up the price of payment to get more interested people" and quite another to sit and argue with the poster why their post is rediculous. It's mean and unacceptable in these forums. If you don't want a persons job, dont reply. It's like going through the newspaper and calling the job postings and telling them their business. Noone would do that cuz it's a waste of time and they have no interest in that job. It's no different here.

It's OK to agree to disagree, I just didnt like the negative feedback, since it wasnt a feedback topic, it was a request for help. You know me, always sticking up for people in posts :P

My point was not to be afraid to ask for cheap help. It's out there. Point #2 is people should not make snide commentary to such requests. In fact, if they have nothing to contribute, such as acceptance to the offer, they have no place posting anyway.

Jason