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Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: Joey] #358172
02/09/11 20:12
02/09/11 20:12
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Error014 Offline
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Haha, I wish I was always able to do that!
I guess I felt too embarrassed in older posts of mine that one day I finally learnt my lesson and started to not write posts angrily (or, if I must, only allos myself those kind of posts when they're written very, very cynically, so as to make sure they at least provide some kind of comical value [to me, if my humor isn't your kind of thing]).


As far as relativity goes, I had to give a small (bit more than an hour) presentation about general relativity back in November (with a ~10-page handout to go with it), so I had to learn all that stuff back then.
Personally, I never really "got" special relativity the way I did when I correctly did the basics for general relativity. For anyone who's looking for a great book on the subject thats easy to follow (yet still a "science"-book, so there's lots of formulas and math-talk), I can highly recommend Sean Carrolls book "Spacetime and Geometry". Maybe the library of your local university has it, if you want to take a look.
It's easy to follow, complete and well-written (he actually only claims that things are trivial when they are! Anyone who read a mathbook will know what I'm trying to say here).
By the way - the twin paradox is in there, too. And fills about half a page...


EDIT:

Quote:
What's going on in these hiring threads?


However, THATS a thing I've noticed, too!

It seems that the intention of going into game development has changed, and quite a lot, too. A few years ago, it wasn't so much creating commercial games and having commercial success, but rather creating the "dream game", or trying out new fun stuff.
Nowadays, everything seems to be connected to a business-scheme. It's almost impossible to find free help, too, contrary to how that used to work.

So... maybe unlike the "general" indie-community, this one shifts to a more... market-, or money-orientated place...
Not trying to judge here... really only making the observation.


...

Oh, screw this. I'm going to judge: I find that sad. It seems so much less pioneer-spirity, less friendly and way too businesslike.
But I guess quite a lot of the active members here weren't there back then... and some of those had those other targets in mind back then as well. Which, again, is fine, just different.


Last edited by Error014; 02/09/11 20:17. Reason: Totally off-topic. WHATCHA GONNA DO HUH

Perhaps this post will get me points for originality at least.

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Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: Error014] #358710
02/12/11 22:07
02/12/11 22:07
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http://faraday.physics.utoronto.ca/PVB/Harrison/SpecRel/Flash/ContractInvisible.htm

An animation explaining the Penrose Tarrel effect
The relativistic contraction is true but it would not be visible

Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: AlbertoT] #358964
02/14/11 17:30
02/14/11 17:30
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There is an other amazing paradox

Andromeda is about d = 2.5 mio light/years far away from the earth

We are in the "stars wars" universe

Two people are walking on the earth to opposite direction
According to the theory of special relativity it is:

Ta = (Te + vd/c^2)/sqrt(( 1 - (v/c)^2)

where
Te is the time on earth which is about the same for the two observers the relative speed v being negligible
Ta is the supposed time of a simultaneous event on Andromeda
Ta is not the same for the two obeservers because of the factor : vd/c^2
If the two observers walk at a normal speed the difference is about 1 day

The first observer says :
The Andromeda council of war must still decide whether to attack the earth
The second observers says :
No a decision has been already taken

Both observers are right according to the relativity

Should we assume that the future is , so to speak , already pre programmed ?

Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: AlbertoT] #389642
12/16/11 14:15
12/16/11 14:15
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Error014

Last time I figured out the following example but I preferred to quit since the discussion had become too hot
Summing up

In may opinion the twin paradox is a direct consequence of the special relativity only but Joey posted some articles whereas it seems the time shift entails a change of speed
I must confess I had some doubt
I would appreciate to get your comments as well as Joey's and any others having some interest in this stuff

The example is :

When the starcraft reaches the cruise speed V = 0.95 C the instrumentation on board start transmitting the pilot's heart beats
On the earth the frequency is f = 60 beats / minute
The twin brother, a doctor, doesnt know the theory of relativity therefore he would expect to receive the beats at a time interval T = 1 + 0.95 = 1.95 secs but he gets
T = 1 + 3.20 = 4.20 secs
He makes the false but consistent assumption that his brother's heart, on board, beats at a frequency f = 18.75 beats / minute
Same consideration on his return
Conclusion : The doctor would not be surprised if his brother twin looks younger than him

What's your comment ?

Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: AlbertoT] #389652
12/16/11 15:49
12/16/11 15:49
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@AlbertoT: If the brother that stays on Earth would transmit his own heartbeat to the brother on the ship, the brother on the ship would also think that the heartbeat of the other brother is slower than it is as measured on Earth.

That is the case for all inertial systems in special relativity. Moving inertial systems always perceive the other as if time was moving slower there. It seems strange and illogical, but it's true.

Therefore, you need general relativity which explains it by the acceleration that is inevitable if the brother on the ships ever wants to come back. wink

Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: Lukas] #389675
12/16/11 19:11
12/16/11 19:11
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Quote:
Therefore, you need general relativity which explains it by the acceleration that is inevitable if the brother on the ships ever wants to come back.


This is a very common misconception.
The problem is that the brother's reference frame is not an inertial frame at the time where he turns around. Thus, you can't work in his frame. You don't need general relativity to show how acceleration and forces work - General relativity is really more concerned about masses and how it curves spacetime. Electromagnetism, in the form of the electro-magnetic field strength tensor, is one of the nicest examples to show the advantages of "relativistic notation", so to speak, and would be more than capable of providing acceleration. Of course, do that, and the brother's frame won't be an inertial frame anymore.

But special relativity has proven to be very capable of solving this "problem" - it's been done dozens of times in this thread already. The trick is: Solve the equation in an inertial frame, and that would be the one of the brother back on earth.


It may seem difficult who and who isn't in an inertial frame (i.e., to see who of the two got accelerated). But it isn't impossible to find out - unless that acceleration is due to gravity. This, the strong equivalence principle, is what lead Einstein to formulate general relativity.
To illustrate that point, imagine being in a box that is freely falling in the vicinity of a massive object. You'd note that you're accelerating, since it seems to you that forces act on small test particles you throw around. But you cannot tell if you are in a gravitational field, or if you're otherwise getting accelerated.
Now consider the situation not in a gravitational field, but an electromagnetic one. Again, you could measure the effects by using (this time charged) particles. But this time, you'd see that the particles behave DIFFERENTLY if they're charged differently. The reason is that this force is *NOT* proportional to mass, but rather to (electric) charge. Therefore, this force seems "different". (Of course, the situation may be more DIFFICULT to approach in a more "realistic" situation, but there's no physical reason that would make it impossible)


Quote:

In may opinion the twin paradox is a direct consequence of the special relativity only but Joey posted some articles whereas it seems the time shift entails a change of speed


I can't remember those articles in question, or Joey claiming that, but it's been a while. Do you have a link ready? I don't want to go through this thread again.
I agree though that the twin paradox can be completely solved in special relativity.

This post should get a huge disclaimer, because I've done these calculations quickly, and thus may have done mistakes.

Quote:

When the starcraft reaches the cruise speed V = 0.95 C the instrumentation on board start transmitting the pilot's heart beats
On the earth the frequency is f = 60 beats / minute
The twin brother, a doctor, doesnt know the theory of relativity therefore he would expect to receive the beats at a time interval T = 1 + 0.95 = 1.95 secs but he gets
T = 1 + 3.20 = 4.20 secs
He makes the false but consistent assumption that his brother's heart, on board, beats at a frequency f = 18.75 beats / minute
Same consideration on his return
Conclusion : The doctor would not be surprised if his brother twin looks younger than him


I'm not sure I got the problem completely. I think there are three ways to look at this problem:

ASSUME c IS CONSTANT FOR ALL OBSERVERS, BUT IGNORE TIME DILATION
(which is nonsense in a way - after all, time dilation and length contraction can be DERIVED from this assumption - but let us assume this doctor is careless, perhaps, and dangerously misinformed)

0.95 seconds corresponds to what is in essence how long light takes to travel the additional distance, right?

Therefore, he used: v*1s/c
However, at this point, he already realized that c is the same for all observers - after all, he did not assume that the light only travels with speed (1-0.95)c, as you'd do if you naively add the velocities (as we'd do in classical mechanics, if we were to calculate, for instance, the speed of a ball thrown inside a train observed from outside - just adding velocities).
laugh


NO RELATIVITY AT ALL
If he actually didn't know about relativity, he'd expect:



the first term being the actual time difference due to the heartbeat (here, we may use an "absolute time and space", since we're ignoring relativity on purpose :)), the second the time our now "slow light" needs to travel the additional distance the second heartbeat has to travel more (which is 0.95*c*1s).
Note please that the first lightray now also takes much longer, but since we're calculating DELTA t, the term vanishes.

Of course, he does not measure 20 seconds, but 6.24s (I get the 3.20 seconds if the doctor corrects those 6.24 seconds UNDER THE ASSUMPTION that c is constant for all observers, but we don't do that here :)). He assumes that the error lies in a different time difference between two heartbeats, that is to say, he assumes a formula of this type:



Solving for t_<3 gives us:

\Delta t_<3 = 0.312 s
Which implies 192.31 heartbeats per minute.
So this particular doctor would be very surprised indeed to find his brother didn't age at all!

... Also, perhaps, that his brother is still alive. laugh

SPECIAL RELATIVITY

Time dilation tells us that the time intervall between two heart beats, observed from the lab frame (=earth, here) would be

\gamma * 1s = 3.20 seconds.

In the lab frame, the ship travels an additional distance of v*c*3.20s in that time, and light travels (for us, and everyone else) at c. So all told, we'd expect a time difference of



Where the first term is just the time between two heartbeats in our reference frame, whereas the second is an additional time difference we get since the second heartbeat has to travel additional distance. This time, it travels at "c" (not 0.05c, as the naive doctor assumed). So we end up with 6.24 seconds.



If our doctor was uneducated (didn't know about relativity at all), he'd get the wrong result - and would assume that his brother would either be dead (due to his crazy heartbeat), or, at the very least, be much older (if he also assumes that, uhm, life speed grows if heartbeat frequency rises).

If our doctor was careless (knew about c=const., but not the rest of it), he'd find from the measured 6.24 seconds a heartbeat-time-difference of 3.20 seconds (which is actually completely right in his rest-frame. A lucky "coincidence", if you will - it is not really a coincidence, granted - this thing is "constructed" to work out like this, but from his wrong assumption, the right thing followed). From there, he'd find the new heartbeat that you've given above.

Another thing to consider is that while time transforms with \gamma, frequency does not (it goes with 1/time, after all). A more complicated transformation may be needed, I do not know right now.




So yeah, that was my slightly longish take on it. laugh
This may actually be a standard problem (the nice result of 20 seconds if done classically, and the still nice result of 3.20 seconds if done in special relativity implies someone chose those numbers with great care ;)), but I didn't know it before, and I didn't google results. What fun is life if there is no risk to embarrass oneself in physics-replies tongue


Perhaps this post will get me points for originality at least.

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Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: Error014] #389692
12/17/11 09:25
12/17/11 09:25
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Originally Posted By: Error014
Haha, I wish I was always able to do that!
I guess I felt too embarrassed in older posts of mine that one day I finally learnt my lesson and started to not write posts angrily (or, if I must, only allos myself those kind of posts when they're written very, very cynically, so as to make sure they at least provide some kind of comical value [to me, if my humor isn't your kind of thing]).


As far as relativity goes, I had to give a small (bit more than an hour) presentation about general relativity back in November (with a ~10-page handout to go with it), so I had to learn all that stuff back then.
Personally, I never really "got" special relativity the way I did when I correctly did the basics for general relativity. For anyone who's looking for a great book on the subject thats easy to follow (yet still a "science"-book, so there's lots of formulas and math-talk), I can highly recommend Sean Carrolls book "Spacetime and Geometry". Maybe the library of your local university has it, if you want to take a look.
It's easy to follow, complete and well-written (he actually only claims that things are trivial when they are! Anyone who read a mathbook will know what I'm trying to say here).
By the way - the twin paradox is in there, too. And fills about half a page...


EDIT:

Quote:
What's going on in these hiring threads?




However, THATS a thing I've noticed, too!

It seems that the intention of going into game development has changed, and quite a lot, too. A few years ago, it wasn't so much creating commercial games and having commercial success, but rather creating the "dream game", or trying out new fun stuff.
Nowadays, everything seems to be connected to a business-scheme. It's almost impossible to find free help, too, contrary to how that used to work.

So... maybe unlike the "general" indie-community, this one shifts to a more... market-, or money-orientated place...
Not trying to judge here... really only making the observation.


...

Oh, screw this. I'm going to judge: I find that sad. It seems so much less pioneer-spirity, less friendly and way too businesslike.
But I guess quite a lot of the active members here weren't there back then... and some of those had those other targets in mind back then as well. Which, again, is fine, just different.


Lol, kinda hard to make the dream game without electricity or a home;)p

Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: Lukas] #389768
12/18/11 12:08
12/18/11 12:08
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AlbertoT Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lukas
@AlbertoT: If the brother that stays on Earth would transmit his own heartbeat to the brother on the ship, the brother on the ship would also think that the heartbeat of the other brother is slower than it is as measured on Earth.



Exactly, simmetry is the essence of relativity
If the doctor reaches the pilot on board then the doctor would be younger

BTW I got the inspiration for this version of the twin paradox from one of most amazing evidence of the special relativity

Remote stars travel at a speed close to the light speed
The spectrum of their light is shifted to the red to such extent that can it not be explained by the Doppler effect only
there are two alternatives :

#1 Time is absolute,
Remote stars are made of a sort of "hybernated" unknown elements
#2 Time is relative
Remote stars are made of the same elements as our sun

Of course the latter is true but also the former is consistent with the measures
It is the twin paradox




Last edited by AlbertoT; 12/18/11 12:49.
Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: Joey] #389769
12/18/11 12:31
12/18/11 12:31
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Error 014

Here are the articles quoted by Joey

http://physics123.net/2009/02/the-twin-paradox-explained/
http://www.einsteins-theory-of-relativity-4engineers.com/twin-paradox-graphical-solution.html
http://www.iep.utm.edu/time-sup/#H17

I thought you agreed with Joey

BTW of course it is T = 3.2 + 0.95 * 3,2 = 6.24 sec
Anyway in principle , I suppose that my example is valid

The twin on the earth measures a time interval between two next heart beats which is longer than expected

The doctor reasonably assumes that his brother was in a hybernated state caused by the speed
Once on the earth he should therefore look younger

The expectation about the apparent aging of his brother is right even though the interpretation of the measures is wrong

Actually is brother does not "look" younger , he "is" younger , time being relative
The pilot will claim to have alwaeys been conscious



Last edited by AlbertoT; 12/18/11 16:31.
Re: Moving at the speed of light [Re: AlbertoT] #389883
12/19/11 13:29
12/19/11 13:29
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Quote:

The twin on the earth measures a time interval between two next heart beats which is longer than expected


That depends.

If you say: he doesn't know about special relativity, then he'd expect to measure a time intervall of 20 seconds, but measures 6.24 seconds. This means what he measures is shorter than expected.

If you say: he knows that c is constant, but is careless, and thus ignores time dilation, THEN he'd measure something that is longer than expected. That, however, is not the true pre-relativistic interpretation.*


Thanks for the links! I'll check them out soonish.

Quote:

I thought you agreed with Joey


I think we all agreed with Joey (yes, you too :P). The isse was, if I remember correctly (and a quick look through this thread suggests the same), that Joey was referring to the, if you will, "second" part of this paradox - that is to say he explained why you cannot invoke symmetry of the observers NAIVELY (Travelling twin is not at rest in any inertial system for the whole duration of flight, including turning around). He never showed any signs of not understanding this "paradox", I think. laugh
If you disagree, that's fair enough. But could you then, perhaps, state in clear words where exactly you believe our opinions differ? laugh


* That is to ignore the fact that c=constant can be "seen" from the Maxwell-equations, but let us assume our doctor is a medical doctor, and perhaps not so well-versed in the physics laugh


Perhaps this post will get me points for originality at least.

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