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You guys do NOT make this easy -- MMP Part 1: Advertising
#222273
08/18/08 18:26
08/18/08 18:26
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fastlane69
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(Part 1 and Part 2 are related. I'm only doing this at JCL's request.)
Hello Conitec,
I've put a lot of thought and time into this post... some might say 5 years worth of time.
I asked the community what they thought of your advertising this engine as MMOG capable and in general what is their opinion of GS Networking. Here are some of their replies:
Quote: But , I agree , that we should all ask...or maby , demand (dunno if we have that right) that Conitec finishes 3DGS's MP and MMO capabilities. This should , in theory , be their main focus , because the future of gaming isnt single player...Even cell phones already have MMO games. :| Why shouldnt we be able to create MMO games ?
Quote: If I sold something and said it could do (INSERT EXCITING THING HERE), and really within a 10 year period nobody could actually do the (INSERT EXCITING THING HERE), then I'm sure people would be mad.
Quote: If I could I'd set up a law suit demanding either: A) Conitec to prove it's MP is capable of 1000's of players -or- B) Remove all claims off their site
And my personal quotes:
-After 5 years of dedicating myself to MMOG, I am still unable to create a product that is stable and publishable. You can blame my code all you want, but the things like "incompatible version" cropping up from who knows which server all the time is not our fault. Things like anyone being able to create a dummy program, anyone being able to connect to our system without us preventing it, and then injecting false data into our system and crashing our servers is not our fault... as a matter of fact it's not Gliders fault either and that was years ago and it's still not resolved!
-Several other members have attempted to create MP and MMP solutions with the engine and failed. Or rather, the engine failed them...
-I am not alone in my dissatisfaction with networking. At one point, network fixes on the forecast had an actual priority. Now they are lumped together with other junk (EDIT: I notice that on Aug 15, encryption and encapsultioan are RDY? I am SO confused as to what you guys are doing with Networking and it's still piecemeal changes on a sunset (DPLAY) engine! Do you think throwing us a random bone our of the blue every fews years qualifies as supporting your network engine? I don't. I suspect others won't either.)
4) Finally, can you at least drop MMOG from your features language if you aren't going to do any of the above? (F69: "the above" refers to updating the Network engine) It's a lie and one that many people are buying into the engine and then realizing it too late. If you can't do MMOG, which GS CAN'T in it's current state, then you should not HAVE MMOG anywhere on your features page.
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Re: You guys do NOT make this easy -- MMP Part 1: Advertising
[Re: Zapan@work]
#222420
08/19/08 08:59
08/19/08 08:59
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377 USofA
fastlane69
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Smaller Multiplayer-Games (1-8 players) are absolutly possible with GameStudio and even with DirectPlay! Possible yes. I've created a slew of MP "programs" But a stable and commercially viable GAME? Not IMO. Surely Glider 1 taught you that! On our part, we want also that the Direct-Play part will be replaced by a more stable and faster one like, Rak-Net. For an MMO or other big multiplayer games this should be a must have. This is the entire point to this thread (or actually Part II since JCL made me break these two related points up into two threads). A) There are no MMOGs created with DPLAY outside of GS. B) DPLAY is sunset so there will be NO MMOGs created with DPLAY outside of GS EVER. C) There are no MMOGs created with DPLAY inside of GS. D) GS's native Net architecture makes it impossible to create a MMOG EVER. So if no MMOGs have been created outside using DPLAY, no MMOGs have been created inside using DPLAY, then how exactly can Conitec advertise this engine as "mmog capable"??? And thus all I want is what you state in your quote: if you want to keep advertising GS as "mmog capable", replace the net engine to a PROVEN MMOG ENGINE.
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Re: You guys do NOT make this easy -- MMP Part 1: Advertising
[Re: Joozey]
#222458
08/19/08 14:25
08/19/08 14:25
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177 Netherlands
PHeMoX
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just perhaps not with native functions, but the advertisements never stated it was achieveable using only the native functionality. You can extend it at will. Perhaps you don't use the multiplayer capabilities of 3dgs, but a lot of people intend to do so using the native capabilities. Nowadays games, and I do not even mean to compete with AAA games really, easily have 12 vs. 12 players in multiplayer or much more. That's something I never got to work with 3dgs. 24 players in total isn't MMO, but if there would be a more optimized / better multiplayer functionality in 3dgs, I would have continued my multiplayer projects. Most of the current projects have no multiplayer at all. Also, despite being able to extend the engine to whatever you'd want, it is suggested on the main site to be part of the (native) features. Apparently, it's difficult to use in practice for the really big multiplayer projects... the MMO kind of things. I do not have any experience with such projects though, but I can say I had a difficult time with multiplayer of 3dgs even with small to medium sized projects. In general though I always assume(d) to be the culprit myself and not the engine, as my coding skills aren't the best. You can do multiplayer just fine using plugins or other means of extensions. Same goes for everything on the forecast page, so it's a bit of a non-argument if you ask me. I do agree with you for the most part though.
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Re: You guys do NOT make this easy -- MMP Part 1: Advertising
[Re: PHeMoX]
#222466
08/19/08 14:48
08/19/08 14:48
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,134 Netherlands
Joozey
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Of course everyone has had problems with multiplayer. I too have done multiplayer. I created a chat and some small game for 2 players. Worked great. Never tried more because I don't have the people to test more, but I don't think it's all that hard to create a 24 player game with GSTNet or raknet, or even create your own plugin. I found a good network tutorial, and I'm sure there are more. As I said, advertisement of gamestudio never stated it was all possible with only the native functions. It just stated that it is possible. Whether you think that's a lame argument or not has not much to do with marketing . Same goes for everything on the forecast page, so it's a bit of a non-argument if you ask me. I do agree with you for the most part though. No, most of the forecast things are not available in plugins, but multiplayer most certainly is. Nsf42 made GSTNet, and you get alot further with it than the native functions. A browser plugin, on the other hand, is not publicly available at all.
Click and join the 3dgs irc community! Room: #3dgs
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Re: You guys do NOT make this easy -- MMP Part 1: Advertising
[Re: Joozey]
#222513
08/19/08 18:42
08/19/08 18:42
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377 USofA
fastlane69
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No, most of the forecast things are not available in plugins, but multiplayer most certainly is. Nsf42 made GSTNet, and you get alot further with it than the native functions. Which is exaclty my point... if the best or only solution is OUTSIDE the engine, don't IMPLY that there is a solution INSIDE the engine.
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Re: You guys do NOT make this easy -- MMP Part 1: Advertising
[Re: fastlane69]
#222557
08/19/08 22:15
08/19/08 22:15
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,377 USofA
fastlane69
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