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Re: Any Muslims here?
[Re: fogman]
#122129
04/14/07 20:30
04/14/07 20:30
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 183
Kinji_2007
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I think Bush and Bin Laden both need a spanking. ;-) I think Bush may have been picked last during kick-ball at recess.. thus the "little man jump on the world" attitude. Bin Laden, of course his mother never spanked him for flying his kite to close to buildings.. thus the deranged ideas. Muslims and some "so-called" Christians alike have violent and hateful ways. Lets get over the whole religion thing and look beyond it. If you like hurting, killing, murder, etc.. you are not even close to being a good person and I can assure you that you are far from the will of God. I do think IMO that the Koran teaches some very harsh things thus the mental-muslims that you call terrorists are just a product of their teachings. Seeing both sides I can understand why they would like to slaughter the US now. Bush has done a fine job generating hate towards the US. We butt-in on any other country we choose. We can have any amount of nuclear weapons we choose.. yet we are bold enough to tell who can and cannot have them in other countries. To this day I cannot grasp how we started looking for Bin Laden and got stcuk in Iraq shoving a new Gov at them. IMO, if Bush was a Christian he would take those billions of dollars he has been spending and focus more on hungry childeren in the states... shelter for the homeless and so on. I know << rambling. Just dont put the name "Bush" in a conversation about Christianity. :-) Quote:
-He says (like you do) fanatics = muslims. But this is not true.
-He has defined the "axis of evil" and he will fight against it
-Axis of evil = fanatics = muslims, this is what Bush says
-Everyone that does not share this thoughts, is an enemy for Bush
So I can indeed say that Bush tries to force a holy war between christians and muslims.
For the record, I have had some awesome Muslim friends. They're not ALL crazy. lol
And yes, Bush is pushing a war not just with Muslims.. but with anyone that looks at him the wrong way. I would hate to see the outcome if someone from China or North Korea slapped him. O_O I think I would have to move. 
Last edited by Kinji_2007; 04/14/07 20:40.
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Re: Any Muslims here?
[Re: Kinji_2007]
#122130
04/14/07 21:29
04/14/07 21:29
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
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Quote:
Muslims and some "so-called" Christians alike have violent and hateful ways. Lets get over the whole religion thing and look beyond it. If you like hurting, killing, murder, etc.. you are not even close to being a good person and I can assure you that you are far from the will of God.
Yes, but why do you insist on believing that Muslim fanatics are a direct result of their religion, but Christian fanatics are not? That's really nonsense.
Quote:
I do think IMO that the Koran teaches some very harsh things thus the mental-muslims that you call terrorists are just a product of their teachings.
The Quran is very comparable to the bible, both the old and new testament, not just the names of important biblical persons are practically identical, also a lot of stories, and as we all know the old testament contains some rather bloody and violent scenes too. With comments on women, slaves and what more, right?
Same as the bible though, the Quran doesn't teach anyone to become a terrorist at all. You don't become a terrorist by believing in the Islam, that's ridiculous.
Quote:
So I can indeed say that Bush tries to force a holy war between christians and muslims.
Indeed, infact Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell and Bush himself have already made statements which confirm this. Rumsfeld: "we came as conquerers ... uuh, we didn't came as conquerers". I don't think he made a mistake in his speech there,
Cheers
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Re: Any Muslims here?
[Re: Kinji_2007]
#122131
04/14/07 22:27
04/14/07 22:27
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,245
AlbertoT
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Posts: 1,245
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Quote:
I think Bush and Bin Laden both need a spanking. ;-)
Well if you mean that America or at least a part of it should be put on the same level of the terrorim than I dont follow you
I repeat , in my opinion terrorism has nothing to do with religion rather with social and economic situation of some countries
That said, if someone tries to attack me or my family I dont care if this guy have had an unhappy childhood
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Re: Any Muslims here?
[Re: PHeMoX]
#122132
04/14/07 23:33
04/14/07 23:33
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 183
Kinji_2007
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Quote:
Yes, but why do you insist on believing that Muslim fanatics are a direct result of their religion, but Christian fanatics are not? That's really nonsense.
The Koran does in fact teach violent things. As a follower of Christ.. start at Matthew and show me examples of any teaching that would push someone to be violent. Even if you could I am sure it would be taken completely out of context. :-) Ran_Man said things in a harsh way but he was right in some points he made.
Quote:
"Fight those who neither believe in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, and do not embrace the religion of the truth, being among those who have been given the Book (Bible and the Torah), until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humiliated." (Surah 9:29)
Quote:
"...O Prophet, urge the believers to fight. If there are twenty patient men among you, you shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred, they shall overcome a thousand, for they are a nation who do not understand." (Surah 8:65)
I am not debating Islam. No need, I know they are wrong and anyone that is atheist cannot give much insight on the matter. heh 
They are a product of the book they read. I would suggest that everyone here, even the guy that claims to be a lukewarm Muslim read the Koran a bit. No offense.
Quote:
The Quran is very comparable to the bible, both the old and new testament, not just the names of important biblical persons are practically identical
I agree 100%. In fact, I think Mohammad was interested in being a Christian before meditation clouded his mind. :-) He heard the stories, read about them.. he simply knew. In knowing.. around 600 years after Jesus died.. Mohammad in his great mind twisted the storie and told it the way he wanted. Did he have a vision that made all this clear? lol The guy should have prayed a bit more before writing a novel. Again, no offense.
Quote:
and as we all know the old testament contains some rather bloody and violent scenes too. With comments on women, slaves and what more, right?
If I were living in 800BC I would be a bit concerned. There was a harsh law back then. Law was created for the lawless. Take prison for example.. there is strict rules there. Why? To govern the people that reside there. We know stories of the good guys and a few back in the OT. The bad outnumber the good by far. I would say that God knew what was best. If harsh law was needed at that time then thats the way it had to be. Jesus changed things in a changing world.. so far it has worked out perfect. I am just wondering when Mohammad is going to come back and make a "NT" for the Muslims. heh Tell them that maybe he was just joking about all the killing. lol
On one hand we have a guy that says "Kill the infidel!" and on the other we have Jesus turning the other cheek.
Quote:
Same as the bible though, the Quran doesn't teach anyone to become a terrorist at all. You don't become a terrorist by believing in the Islam, that's ridiculous.
You misunderstand. The violent teachings make it ok to use any means needed to kill. Seek death for allah? I am sure there are some peaceful Muslims but we are not seeing them in the news. We see terrorists, Jihad and so on. All you have to do is turn on the TV or read the paper. It is full of violence.. when your not seeing our twisted president then you are seeing more footage of Muslims.
As always, good to chat with ya PHeMoX. :-D
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Re: Any Muslims here?
[Re: Kinji_2007]
#122133
04/15/07 10:58
04/15/07 10:58
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
Robotronic
Senior Member
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Senior Member
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Posts: 414
Munich, Germany
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Quote:
.. start at Matthew and show me examples of any teaching that would push someone to be violent.
That´s an easy exercise, even if I don´t like these silly arguments:
"Think not that I am come to send peace: I came not to send peace but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
(Luke 22:36)
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
(Luke 19:27. In a parable, but spoken of favorably.)
The burning of unbelievers during the Inquisition was based on the words of Jesus:
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)
If anything, Islam introduced a modest form of tolerance against people of other faith. The prophet, for example, explicitly stated, that it is not allowed to kill non-Muslims in Muslim societies:
Quote:
From the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Al-Awsat by Al-Tabarani, we find regarding those non-Muslims living in the Islamic state,
The Messenger of Allah (saas) said, "One who kills a non-Muslim person under protection (Arabic: dhimmi) will not even smell the fragrance of Paradise."
Also from the Sunnah, specifically in a report from Al-Khatib, we find that the Messenger of Allah (saas) also said:
Whoever hurts a non-Muslim person under protection, I am his adversary, and I shall be an adversary to him on the Day of Resurrection.
link
Quote:
The violent teachings make it ok to use any means needed to kill.
That´s nonsense. Mohammed gave rules for war. Centuries later Thomas Aquinas gave rules for war too. If someone follows the Qur´an it is explicitly not okay to use "any means needed" or to start wars, simply inorder to kill "infidels".
For example - from the Qur´an:
[17:33] Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)
[22:39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
From the Sunnah:
[4:52:257] Narrated 'Abdullah: During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah's Apostle disapproved the killing of women and children.
You will find, that not all people, who call themselves Muslims do live up to these standards: women and children are killed, hostages are murdered.
But these actions are in contradiction with the Qur´an and the teaching of Mohammed.
To claim something different - contrary to the evidence - can only embolden the terrorists.
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Re: Any Muslims here?
[Re: Robotronic]
#122134
04/15/07 23:23
04/15/07 23:23
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 183
Kinji_2007
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Quote:
That´s an easy exercise, even if I don´t like these silly arguments:
Not arguments. lol Just a simple conversation.
Quote:
"Think not that I am come to send peace: I came not to send peace but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)
Read the rest of His lecture. You cannot take one verse and expect to understand what He is talking about.
Quote:
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Do you understand where they were going and what happens next? He didnt command them to do anything violent at all. Keep following the story and I can assure you that the Lord makes it ok. ;-)
Quote:
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)
The branches are burned. I cannot possibly imagine burning someone over that scripture and who says the people doing the burning is a real Christian? Jesus taught above all to LOVE. Turn the other cheek. Do good to them that treat you bad and so on.
Quote:
One who kills a non-Muslim person under protection (Arabic: dhimmi) will not even smell the fragrance of Paradise."
What about a non-muslim thats not under protection?
Quote:
You will find, that not all people, who call themselves Muslims do live up to these standards: women and children are killed, hostages are murdered.
By saying that you know full well that anyone doing horrible things such as...
Quote:
The burning of unbelievers during the Inquisition
Is not at all a Christian. They just claim to be. The Bible says we will "know them by their fruits".
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Re: Any Muslims here?
[Re: Robotronic]
#122135
04/16/07 05:59
04/16/07 05:59
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,682
Coppell, Texas
Ran Man
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Coppell, Texas
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There's no sense talking to him. He's too busy defending his "God of War". It's all Bush's fault. Quote:
[ The prophet, for example, explicitly stated, that it is not allowed to kill non-Muslims in Muslim societies:
Hmmmn, I agree.
The Koran tells us very plainly below who to fight against.
But, you have to read it.
It is plain and clear, yes? 
Quote:
Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth , until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son
of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! ...
The Quran, Sura 9:28-31
So, you are supposed to go around and FIGHT against those not following the "religion of truth". 
That could be Jews, christians, buddhist or whatever.
It could be a Sunni or a Shia muslim.
If they ain't following the good ole "RELIGION OF TRUTH", then you're supposed to slaughter them.
Just read it? Is it too complicated? or does everybody choose to be blind? 
Last edited by Ran Man; 04/16/07 06:03.
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Re: Any Muslims here?
[Re: Kinji_2007]
#122136
04/16/07 10:07
04/16/07 10:07
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
PHeMoX
Senior Expert
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Senior Expert
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,177
Netherlands
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Quote:
Ran_Man said things in a harsh way but he was right in some points he made.
Actually he wasn't, but you believe him anyways, that's something different.
There's often a difference between what people say is written in the Quran and what's really in there. As said by the Christian defenders here, it's too easy to take quotes out of context and claim the religion is violent. Both are actually equal as violent.
Besides, I don't see why the old testament suddenly "isn't really part off" Christianity .. that's, uhhm back paddling at best and off course it's nonsense.
Cheers
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Re: Any Muslims here?
[Re: PHeMoX]
#122137
04/16/07 10:37
04/16/07 10:37
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 183
Kinji_2007
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Quote:
Besides, I don't see why the old testament suddenly "isn't really part off" Christianity .. that's, uhhm back paddling at best and off course it's nonsense.
Its our history. If you are following Christ I say "follow Him". That begins in Matthew. ;-)
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