Leadwerks engine 2

Posted By: sueds

Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/06/08 20:00

hello,

Just want to show an incomming engine which seems nice. I've try the first one wasn't bad but nothing exceptional, but this one seems pretty interesting.

http://leadwerks.com/


cheers
Posted By: Orange Brat

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/06/08 20:15

I used to experiment with their early demos when Leadwerks was still just putting out 3DWS. Nice to see he's still at it. Assuming everything is still the same, it's a one man show.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/07/08 06:53

The new version looks good. The documentation is still not much but it gives enough info for getting started.

The rendering features are great and the preview video is promising.
Posted By: ello

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/07/08 07:52

yes, it looks like 3dgs should look.. damn c++ i dont know nough of it
Posted By: sueds

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/07/08 10:28

it's seems you can use it with c# but I don't know how.
Posted By: ello

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/07/08 11:37

i guess or believe you could even use it with lite-c ??
Posted By: Marcus729

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/08/08 03:39

Theoritically you can use with any language that can handle a DLL.

I have used it with C#. One of the forum members created a .Net wrapper class for the DLL and its members.

I have not really done much other than run the demos. I am putting together a few art assets to play around with it.

If anyone is interested I will report back once I have something to show.

Marcus
Posted By: Frederick_Lim

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/08/08 05:34

 Quote:
Unified per-pixel lighting system with dynamic soft shadows; Every object casts and receives shadows.


I am not engine expert, what is the meaning of that? Is A7 has this feature?
Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/08/08 07:13

 Quote:
I am not engine expert, what is the meaning of that? Is A7 has this feature?


Unified per-pixel lighting with everything casting and receiving shadows is something like the heaven for level designers. It is simple to use, no pre-compiling, only placing objects, placing lights and seeing the results instantly.

"everything casting and receiving shadows" is great in combination with "unified". So even the level geometry (maybe a pillar) could cast a shadow to your moving character while the character also casts shadows to the pillar.
But level geometry still has the advantages like scene-management and fast collision detection while looking as great as a model-based scene.

"Unified" can describe different meanings. In terms of GarageGames or A7 it can mean that everything reacts the same in terms of materials, shaders, lights and shadows, no matter if you use models, level geometry (even foliage could react very similar).
The Leadwerks engine reads the levels from their own level editor - a bsp brush based editor. So they allow the same lighting on models and level geometry. This is not the case with Torque or A7. So they indeed have a more advanced technology in terms of useablility.

Per-pixel simply means that lighting does not work per vertex / polygon. It calculates the bright and darker spots on the model for every pixel and thus results in more realistic and better looking lighting scenarios.
This is possible in many engines via shaders. But the latest ones use this method even for default lighting, especially if the render kernel is shader based.
A7, TGE and other older tools use per-vertex lighting as default (if you do not add a shader material to a model).

The disadvantage of per-vertex lighting is: You sometimes see single polygons on the model and light distributes bad on lowpoly models. That is one of the reasons why there is a function in the level compiler of Gamestudio to subdivide the level geometry. It is to allow better light distribition.
Posted By: Frederick_Lim

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/08/08 12:49

Is that mean no static light map and everything is real-time? I can't access Leadwerks web site.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/08/08 13:53

The lighting is real-time as you can see in their video:

http://www.leadwerks.com/images/engine2.wmv
Posted By: sueds

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/08/08 16:30

marcus do you have the latest version ? I would be glad to have a some feedback !


cheers
Posted By: Marcus729

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/09/08 03:56

sueds,

Yes I have the latest version. It is still in beta. Josh has stated he expects to release it in about two weeks.

What kind of feedback are you looking for?

I have been playing with the C# coding. I am a programmer so my feedback on artistic questions will be slowed as I relay them to another member that is more art oriented then myself.

Marcus
Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/10/08 16:56

 Quote:



So even the level geometry (maybe a pillar) could cast a shadow to your moving character while the character also casts shadows to the pillar.

per-pixel simply means that lighting does not work per vertex / polygon. It calculates the bright and darker spots on the model for every pixel and thus results in more realistic and better looking lighting scenarios.


Well ok but at what cost ?
I tried this high quality rendering engines but I got a very low frame rate on an old but not that old system ( ATI Radeon 9500)
Posted By: broozar

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/10/08 22:31

 Quote:
( ATI Radeon 9500)
cough, cough. that's 4 generations behind today's standard. (rad 9xxx - rad X8xx - rad X18xx - rad HD 2xxx - rad HD 3xxx). considering the standard game dev time of about 18 months, the time your game will be released, your card will not be better than a candle holder.
Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/11/08 09:58

Do not exagerate
Here in this forum most of us have modern hardware but it is not the case of occasional casual game end users
Posted By: broozar

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/11/08 10:15

i do not exaggerate. the 9500 originated in 2002, that's 6 years behind now (1 1/2 system generation, assuming a system's life span of 4 years) and P4 Nothwood era.
if you want to focus on casual games, focus on the Intel GMA/X graphics chips that are built into laptops.
Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/12/08 13:55

I wouldn't look upon the HD2xxx series and HD3xxx series as different generations, but it's true that the ATI Radeon 9500 is pretty old by now... at least in my opinion.
Posted By: Ambassador

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/18/08 12:17

Originally Posted By: AlbertoT
Here in this forum most of us have modern hardware but it is not the case of occasional casual game end users


Don't remember the numbers but according to gamespys research, the majority of gamers have machines capable of running next gen stuff. (aka deferred shading 'n stuff...)
Posted By: lostclimate

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/18/08 17:09

video cards have also had a dramatically lowered price, and now event the new budget cards are pretty powerful, for example i just build a friends computer and was able to get a radeon hd2600 for $49 that isnt amazing but isnt really challange by most games except like crysis, and as for my vid cards, i spent $130 and got dual sli nvidia geforce 8500gt's and they can play crysis at full settings in just about every area except areas with complete foliage so again for a card that runs well (not perfect) its not that expensive nowadays. (btw, my cards were purchased 5 months ago now too, so its probably around the point were prices get dropped again, around every 6 months)
Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/23/08 19:28

Originally Posted By: Ambassador

Don't remember the numbers but according to gamespys research, the majority of gamers have machines capable of running next gen stuff. (aka deferred shading 'n stuff...)


Maybe you are right I dont have actual figures
However for casual gamers I mean someone playing games from time to time
It is not just a matter of price
If you you use a computer just as a word processors on regular basis than even outdated computers are ok
This kind of audience does not change a graphic card so often, regardless of the price, simply because they are not interested
Posted By: Orange Brat

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/23/08 22:29

That should probably read the majority of hardcore gamers. I can't believe the majority of all gamers (minus casual) regularly update their 3D cards.
Posted By: lostclimate

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/24/08 00:12

why not? up to date cards are very cheap nowadays
Posted By: sueds

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/24/08 17:38

yes so can I ask someone which graphics card is better ? I just brun my computer so I need a cheap one before I can buy a real one and I don't know where I Can ask !
Posted By: lostclimate

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/24/08 20:31

its interesting we just had this discussion on the blender forums, heres what was wrote, most of the advice in it is the basic info you'll need when getting a budget card:

http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=124990
Posted By: AndyUK

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/26/08 09:43

Originally Posted By: lostclimate
why not? up to date cards are very cheap nowadays

Most pc owners will not install upgrades themselves. If a shop is asked to upgrade then not only does it cost more money but the owners of the pc have the hassle of having to disconnect the pc and take it to the shop for the upgrade (and sometimes having to collect 24 hours later).

If you are a gamer then you are generally clued up about doing upgrades yourself but if you are a the type of person who plays the odd game and uses a pc for office work then just because a graphic card is cheap doesn't mean you are immediately going to install one as soon as a game runs badly. You are more likely to return the game.
Posted By: lostclimate

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/26/08 12:33

"I can't believe the majority of all gamers"
we were discussing gamers and how up to date their cards were.
Posted By: Machinery_Frank

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/26/08 12:45

Originally Posted By: AlbertoT
If you you use a computer just as a word processors on regular basis than even outdated computers are ok
This kind of audience does not change a graphic card so often, regardless of the price, simply because they are not interested


But you will not make a game for this type of audience with Leadwerks2, UE3 or C4 engine. You will better use Torque Game Builder (the 2d engine of Torque) to make a fast running and good looking 2d casual game then.

I will never see a 3d shooter at the machines of my parents. They simply dont care and dont need latest hardware for that. But they also buy new complete pc hardware from time to time. So it happens that you see much computers capable to play 3d shader games even though they never will do it.
Posted By: lostclimate

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/26/08 12:49

I completely aggree with machinery frank

I dont understand why nobody understands, that a gamer is going to have a gamer pc, but the office is going to have an office pc, and going to play bejeweled, and solitaire.... why do you need a great videocard with those?
Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: Leadwerks engine 2 - 05/30/08 18:12

I have some friends who have a computer and play games from time to time but they dont even know what a graphic card is

However I wonder whether Leadweerks, C4 etc , in general these advanced engines are really suitable for an AAA game
I asked this question, some time ago, on GameDev.net

" Why should a commercial sofware house pay hundred thousand dollars for a game engine while they could purchase a good one for a hundred dollars ?"

I was reply by a guy who claimed to work for a well known software house

He said that someone in the team had the same idea and they decided to give it a try
At the beginning everything was working well but in the medium run they had to quit and pay the royalties of the expensive engine because of instabilities and poor performances which were not evident in the preliminary bench test

I dont know whether this story is true, I have no reason to doubt it
In any case it made sense to me
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