the bible + extraterrestrials

Posted By: ventilator

the bible + extraterrestrials - 08/10/06 00:59

i think phemox already came up with the same question deep in some other thread but if i remember correctly it didn't really get answered.

what would literal bible believers think if aliens visited earth? not that i think this will happen anytime soon - it's just an interesting theoretical question.

would that prove the bible wrong to them?

is there anything at all that could prove the bible wrong to them?

Posted By: NITRO777

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 08/10/06 01:17

Quote:

what would literal bible believers think if aliens visited earth? not that i think this will happen anytime soon - it's just an interesting theoretical question. would that prove the bible wrong to them?

No. The Bible doesnt exclude the possibility of other creations on different planets. However theoretical questions aside: the Bible lays out a prophetic plan in Revelation. Aliens are not mentioned in that plan.

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is there anything at all that could prove the bible wrong to them?

I dont think so.

Any more questions?

Posted By: jcl

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 08/10/06 09:14

It is indeed an interesting speculation by which scenario an unfalsifiable belief - like the faith of some bible believers - could be overcome. Certainly not by reality or by logic, otherwise the belief would be falsifiable. But how about the following hypothetical scenarios?

a) Archeologists discover the original of the bible, and find that it on the last page contains a statement "This book is wrong".

b) The Lord himself appears in a blinding flash of light, a heavy document folder under his arm, and exclaims "Sorry - the bible was published a little too hasty. Here's the correction!".

Would this make hard-core bible believers get second thoughts?

Posted By: Matt_Aufderheide

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 08/10/06 09:58

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Archeologists discover the original of the bible

They already did.. but kept in a secret government warehouse, right next to the Ark.

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The Lord himself appears in a blinding flash of light

What about a non-blinding puff of smoke?

Come on guys, nothing can disprove the Bible for these people, they believe because they want to believe.. that's a lot stronger than logic and reason for many people. Your exmaples of falsifications are of course absurdities.

About the Aliens; I dont see how discovering life on other planets would falsify the Bible in any way: Genesis just describes the formation of Earth and the "heavens" ... it doesnt say whether or not God made a few stops at other planets to make some green men.

Posted By: ICEman

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 08/23/06 13:16

OK well I really liek that earlier example:

What if God poofed into being for the entire world to see ( even allowed himself to be on camera despite not having the opportunity to apply makeup).

What if then..people go: Jesus?..

God:..No...

Person 2: Allah?...

God:..Nope...

P3: Buddha (?) ?...

God:.. Fraid not...

Everyone:..Who are you? What's your name?...

God:..Goddy G. Goderson.

I sense billions of people having mental breakdowns having found out that their lifelong beliefs were incorrect.

I think that's the reason that if there is a God ( not neccesarily one by our definition but the being reaponsible for our creation nonetheless) and he is still alive, that's the reason he doesnt show. We couldnt handle a society/civilization altering truth like that. I think he/she/it kind of trusted us to make our own truth and deal with it that way because Earth and God are far too alcient an inquiry for us to know now.

Tho.. what if one day we uncover an actual vocally expressed message left behind by what did create us.. and it explained everything? Would we accept it and move on, now knowing the truth or would the powers that be lock it away never to be revealed..?

It occurs to me that humans revise these holy books, humans keep secrets from one another and humans perpetuate religious beliefs. No one within those 3 circles wants to know the truth because it either conflicts with their interests or attacks them too personally.

I think it'll be a few hundred million years before we come anywhere near the actual truths of our existence or origins. We just want so badly to be right here, now, and today.

I think I know the begginings of it.. its starting to make logical and scientific sense..( as the truth must) but the minute I explain this to a person who's far too religious to really give this a timeshare of their cognitive thought, it.. pretty much get's dismissed.

In order to find the truth and be genuinely enlightened, humans have to be less willing to sheep into the creations of other men.. and more willing to be candid, exploratory and accepting of the truth. We have to get out of this attitude that we know everything and accept first that we dont.

About ET's tho.. almost no religious reference makes room for life beyond earth. While they may not disavow it, they conveniently make earth the center of creation and man the focus of creation, perdition, and such. Texts that limited in a universe truly as vast as ours tell to me that they came from man.

If they were originally written by a divinity, I doubt we could comprehend it. The authors thinking would be so far advanced and so much of a larger scale than our own.. it would be a big mouth burger on which we would only be capable of taking one nibble at a time. Aliens exist, so if God wrote about the universe, the existence and role of other societies would have to be a little more than just " not mentioned... but not left out either".

You just dont tell a story about the universe and leave out reference all other life in the universe. A book of origin is supposed to be written with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. That's how, to me, you can tell most religious texts were not written nor inspired by divinity. They may have been written by the wisest of the wise and then edited a few times by the powers that be.. that's what it seems to me they were.. but just too humanity specific to be crafted by a God (by ours or any definition warranting the title).

Posted By: mpdeveloper_B

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 08/23/06 15:02

the bible and aliens dont fit together how?

i never found a passage in the bible saying
"And God Stopped Creating"

XD

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 08/25/06 18:30

Are there any direct remarks in the bible about extraterrestrials, as in something 'not originating from earth'? Just curious.

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i never found a passage in the bible saying
"And God Stopped Creating"

I never found a passage in the bible saying he likes pizza, doesn't really mean he doesn't like pizza, he just never said so. But you knew that, off course.

Quote:

You just dont tell a story about the universe and leave out reference all other life in the universe. A book of origin is supposed to be written with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. That's how, to me, you can tell most religious texts were not written nor inspired by divinity. They may have been written by the wisest of the wise and then edited a few times by the powers that be.. that's what it seems to me they were.. but just too humanity specific to be crafted by a God (by ours or any definition warranting the title).

Okey, so any flaw in the bible would discredit it as being the truth and nothing but the truth. Enough said I guess. The text isn't as perfect as most claim, for example it doesn't have answers to ALL questions, so how can it be the truth, the only truth and nothing but the truth? But yeah, that's a whole different topic.

Quote:

a) Archeologists discover the original of the bible, and find that it on the last page contains a statement "This book is wrong".

b) The Lord himself appears in a blinding flash of light, a heavy document folder under his arm, and exclaims "Sorry - the bible was published a little too hasty. Here's the correction!".

Hahaha lol

, but no, those people definately would simply disbelief the archaeological find is authentic. I'm currently working at an archaeological site ( www.archeologie-in-ede.nl (sorry, dutch only) ) and you'd be surprised how many visitors simply walk away saying they simply don't believe the finds are as old as they are and they even accuse us of misleading people.
The area of Ede, or more precisely Bennekom is pretty religious, more specifically Jehova's, so it's not really a surprise to me to hear that they don't believe us. But it is fact we actually hold the evidence right there in our hands, right there before their faces ... Some even said something along this line "yeah, very cool finds, but no it's put there in the ground by God, simply because God wants to test our faith in Him". Jup jup, I guess we can wave any evidence good-bye then, with these kind of responses ..

sligtly OT, but also relevant in the bigger picture hehehehe

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I sense billions of people having mental breakdowns having found out that their lifelong beliefs were incorrect.

Uuuh, yeah, if only it worked like that ... billions of people are infact having a lifelong belief that's 100% incorrect. Doesn't really matter if one is right, because others will be wrong. That fact alone still doesn't convince anyone to stop believing what they are believing in now and they are selfish enough to not even realise it's actually pretty plain stupid to think you can actually know wether or not God exists, wether it's the Buddha, Allah or simply God or your kindergarten teacher with magical powers ...

It's all equally as wrong, simply because we can't know and chances are the current most popular religions aren't more right than someone stating God is an evil Spaghetti Monster eating misbehaving Macaroni's all day long ... Turn it around all you like, but it's like a circle, it's round, so people please wake up and stop imagining it's a rectangle with perfect 90 degrees angles. Thank you.

There is enough evidence on this planet to discredit most religions, of course billions of people would disagree, simply because they believe in (a) God, whatever that means. Lol, d o t h � y e v e n k n o w? No offence to anyone more religious than I am, but they should realize that it's pointless. No claim is valid without evidence, no nice bedtime story will change that, nor 1000s pages of text will, which suposedly are pretty old and never rewritten (yeah right

).

Think of it like this, I have made a drawing of something abstract, not a circle, not a rectangle and not a triangle, however it has features of all of those forms mixed into a very complicated piece of eeuhm 'art'. Now imagine this 'art' would be God. Off course you haven't seen this 'art' yet, so how the [censorredd] could you know exactly what it looks like? Yeah, because that's exactly what some people think to now ...

('knowing what it looks like' would be equal to understanding more or less the concept of whatever God would be out there, what he would think is wrong to do and other of those more specific details, some if not all of which are mentioned in the bible or any other religious text as if they now them for truth and nothing less.)

Okey, and now you may forget everything I've just said, because who knows, I can be wrong just like everybody else.
However demanding some evidence before believing in anything sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Cheers

Posted By: mpdeveloper_B

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 08/26/06 21:17

what i don't understand is why other christians will say "the world couldn't be billions of years old", i do not agree. In the original hebrew context of the bible it states that God "began to create", not "created it in one day". Alot of what you read in the bible has changed since the original translation, not to mention there are parts of the bible that were taken out after it was written (search for "the lost books of the bible"). The reason extraterrestrials weren't mentioned is the bible is not about what went on out of our planet, it teaches on God's relation to man. It merely mentions that God created animals and the earth, the meaning of the bible is not to explain about "other" life forms. Well, i'll just leave you with this word, i hope i didn't go against anyone's beliefs, if so i'm sorry, i'm not here to tell you that you're wrong.

Cheers, enjoy the debate. (don't fight now)

Posted By: ICEman

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 08/26/06 22:21

@ Phemox.. well sadly what makes those billions break down is that for some..well alot.. their religion is a deep pathogen.. so if something so unequivocable as God literally showing up and demoing to prove so happened.. theyd all have breakdowns..

That's probably the only logical reason why if there is one..he doesnt.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 08/27/06 10:05

Quote:

That's probably the only logical reason why if there is one..he doesnt.

Maybe, but it probably wouldn't matter anyways, because not all religious people would believe they've just seen God, infact some might even say it's a trick of the devil for all they know, because in the bible it says [blablabla..], and no, not all atheists, if any, would quickly become deeply religous just by seeing this "God". So, yes, there may be some sense in not showing up in public, but it does feel a bit like an excuse to me, eventhough this may sound pretty selfish when there would really be a God.

The religious people who do not believe what they see now, as in evidence for a much much much older world, will also have different thoughts about what they have seen when something like that would happen, especially when something contradicts their original beliefs. I suspect a lot of them do not actually believe in God, but believe in the bible instead. Breakdowns or not, I'd prefer to know the truth above anything else, and if it's what you see is what you get, well then God simply doesn't exist.

Cheers

Posted By: Ambassador

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 08/27/06 19:19

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b) The Lord himself appears in a blinding flash of light.

It is in the bible, if you would see God face to face then you would be dead...

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 09/01/06 17:40

Quote:

Quote:

b) The Lord himself appears in a blinding flash of light.

It is in the bible, if you would see God face to face then you would be dead...

Come on, think about it, it's another quite ridiculous claim in the bible trying to keep you from thinking about it some more if you ask me. If something could be seen, then by chance someone would have, okey, given there's enough time.

Yes, so they claim it's impossible to see God and live, and expect that you'd give up thinking about it. However by this statement, don't they actually admit the fact that he quite literally can't be found? If you can't see him, never, then what infact would define him as being 'real'? In case you believe you will see him/her/it in heaven, then that's fine with me, however by that time yours as well as my brain activities are both zero, so we will never actually know and off course not live to tell.

Statements like 'if you see him, then you must be dead' smell fishy to me. Again, how do they know? One of them had any first-hand experience with this or what?!

Cheers

Posted By: Matt_Aufderheide

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 09/01/06 21:27

Its not that complicated.. its just ancient mumbo jumbo. you were not supposed to be able to look at the Pharoh of Egypt either.

Posted By: ICEman

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 09/02/06 01:17

Blah.. when I think God.. I dont think in terms of the tall tales written by mankind.

I dont think we have the slightest clue or inclinct as to the nature of "God", other than him being incomprehensibly powerful. Powerful beyond anything we know.. because we're a young species. The fact that we have made all these tall tales and holified everything some king at some point has told us to..and that modern man still buys these tales fullheartedly.. or feels arrogant as to say we sprang from nothing at all.. skews our ability to properly investigate God.

It can't be imposible to see God..if it is or was a living breathing physical entity.. it, or its remains, can be seen.

What we have there is a convenience item, as someone mentioned, so that that point is never called to question. Most religions have several of these convenient stop points. In their purest form, I believe they were meant to indicate what we dont yet need to know..but in their adulterated forms.. probably things which threaten the religion itself.

Posted By: amy

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 04/22/08 04:21

What if the extraterrestrials showed us their documentary video of earth�s history and the evolution of its inhabitants? $\:\)$

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 04/22/08 18:52

I'm going to have both spaceships and aliens in my next game and this WILL FREAK people out man!!! HAHAHA! $\:D$

But, it's probably not going to be what you guys expected.
Also, must have BIG FOOT and other monsters in there too!

LOL

signed,
crazy cougar :p

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 04/23/08 01:29

Ran_man is that you??? $;\)$ Heheheh, while you're at it throw in big foot, yeah, why not? $\:\)$

as this thread was resurrected anyways;

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I dont think we have the slightest clue or inclinct as to the nature of "God", other than him being incomprehensibly powerful.

No, actually we don't know if God is 'incomprehensibly powerful' either. Besides that is basically just ridiculous paradoxical language to depict God as something unreachable and incomprehensible, but we really know nothing instead.... In fact, regardless of it's properties, we don't even have a clue whether or not a God could potentially exist. There's too many people that assume by grace of the unfalsifiable nature of Gods that they therefore must exist. Which is with all respect quite clearly ridiculous in my humble opinion.

Cheers

Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 04/27/08 11:54

the main issue with the extraterestrials from the point of view of the bible is the original sin and the salvation
Did they also eat the apple ?
If so, how many times has Jesus Christ been crucifiged ?
Otherwise , are they still living in the Eden ?
I dont think that religiuos people can accept the existance of extraterrestrials

Posted By: Spirit

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 05/01/08 07:10

That depends on if they believe in original sin, not many people still do. I think only very fundamentalistic sects would have major problem with accepting the existence of extraterrestrials.

Posted By: NITRO_2008

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 05/01/08 07:40

Quote:

That depends on if they believe in original sin, not many people still do. I think only very fundamentalistic sects would have major problem with accepting the existence of extraterrestrials.

It doesn't matter if they accept original sin or not, angels and other extraterrestrials are mentioned all throughout the Bible.

Also the consequences of original sin were constrained to the earth and the flesh which was made from the "dust of the earth"

Quote:

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said,Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree,of which I commanded thee, saying,Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Only "the ground" was cursed, not the ground of any other planet.

Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 05/01/08 07:58

Originally Posted By: Spirit

That depends on if they believe in original sin, not many people still do.

Why did Jesus Christ sacrifice his life , then ?
The original sin is a milestone of Christian faith

Posted By: Spirit

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 05/01/08 15:38

The original sin doctrine is certainly not a milestone and is not even Christian. Its not contained in the Bible and not taught by Jesus, but was only invented in the 2nd century AC by a bishop named Irenaeus.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 05/01/08 15:56

It's probably right after the whole Jesus myth of resurrection was invented in the first place and very short after they decided and voted on whether or not Jesus was the son of God.

So if the 'original sin doctrine' isn't Christian, then Jesus isn't either.

Also, and could be wrong, but I thought both are mentioned in the Bible.

Posted By: NITRO_2008

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 05/01/08 16:23

Quote:

Also, and could be wrong, but I thought both are mentioned in the Bible.

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Its not contained in the Bible

Of course its contained in the Bible:

Quote:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Also it permeates the life and teachings of Christ,its all throughout the Old testament also. But any further elaboration to people who clearly have their minds already made up would be useless. I have a feeling that I could show a hundred Biblical references which clearly illustrate the point but it would simply waste my time.

Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 05/01/08 17:36

Spirit

You did not answer my question
Why did Jesus Christ die on the cross , then ?

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 05/01/08 23:09

Quote:

I have a feeling that I could show a hundred Biblical references which clearly illustrate the point but it would simply waste my time.

True, but it's not because I'm biased or close minded, I'm neither of that, I simply have a different point of view on the Bible itself and whether or not any of the content is reliable and credible information. I think it's not for a lot of reasons and I think it's pretty clear that the historical value is extremely low if not non-exist,... and well, that's simply where we disagree I guess.

Posted By: NITRO_2008

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 05/01/08 23:56

Quote:

True, but it's not because I'm biased or close minded,

??I was actually agreeing with you.

The point I was referring to was about whether the doctrine of original sin is contained in the Bible. Which it is clearly outlined in almost every book. Its such a central theme to the Biblical writings themselves it would be useless for me to try to argue the point. Its like trying to argue whether the earth exists...its just a waste of time.

And also you dont have to believe the Bible in order to have a discussion about what is contained therein.

The question on the floor is whether the Bible allows for extraterrestrials, you don't have to believe the Bible to discuss that either.

It is only a question of what is in the book, not whether or not you believe it to be true.

Posted By: Tobias

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 05/02/08 06:14

Original sin is indeed not mentioned in Scripture. Some concepts that many people think are Christian such as the Trinity and the original sin, only became Christian doctrine for political reasons after the council of Nicea. Jesus never said anything of original sin. He would probably have been dismayed by such an idea.

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That simply means what it says. Adam was the first sinner and all other men also have sinned, and thus we are doomed to death even when our sin was not similar to Adams, which was disobedience. We are punished not for Adams but for our own sins of course.

Jesus also was not sacrificed for Adams sin, he was sacrificed for all peoples sins even when they are not Christian, and even for extraterrestrials. $;\)$

Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 05/02/08 16:43

Do you mean that all men became sinners because of Adam's sin ?
If so, you accept the " original sin " even though it is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible
Orherwise , if someone after Adam, did not commit any crime, how can you explain that nobody was allowed to enter the heaven, before Jesus's sacrifice ?
Moreover if Jesus sacrificed his life for the salvation of all people , extraterrestrials included , I suppose you expect an other advent to wash the sins of the last 2000 years and then an other one and so on till the end of the world..
Or should I understand that his sacrifice was valid also for future sins committed by the future generations , extraterrestrials included ?

P.S.

I apologizes if some Christians get offended of such easy irony
The point is that I stand on fundementalist side
Liberal christians try to explain in term of common sense what it is just a matter of faith
Either you beleive or you do not beleive
I dont...

Posted By: Tobias

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 05/02/08 17:14

Well, we are sinners because we sin. How is that hard to understand?

A sin is something you commit. If you were a sinner even without sinning, the word "sin" would not make much sense anymore, don't you agree?

And yes, of course Jesus's sacrifice was for future sins also. Or do you seriously think Jesus has to reappear every 100 years to be sacrificed for those who sinned inbetween? Jesus' death was a sacrifice by God to us. Jesus was sacrificed to compensate for all human imperfectness that causes us to sin. By devouring His flesh and blood, we accept the sacrifice and don't blame God to have made us this imperfect.

Posted By: PHeMoX

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 05/02/08 19:37

Originally Posted By: NITRO_2008

Quote:

True, but it's not because I'm biased or close minded,

Hahaha, no, no, don't get me wrong. I totally agree with you on this too. But there are still always multiple interpretations possible as the discussion here kind of shows.

Edit:

Quote:

Original sin is indeed not mentioned in Scripture.

Not explicitly, but then again nothing is really explicitly mentioned in the Bible. So yeah, you are right as well I guess. There seems to be a consensus on the explanation of this part of the Bible though, eventhough 'original sin' is never explicitly mentioned.

Posted By: AlbertoT

Re: the bible + extraterrestrials - 05/03/08 10:37

Originally Posted By: Tobias

A sin is something you commit. If you were a sinner even without sinning, the word "sin" would not make much sense anymore, don't you agree?

Of course I agree,if I understood well.
B.C. the right went to heaven ,the wicked to hell
If so, what's the problem ?
I could argue that hell is an excessive punishement even for the worst sinners but in principle it was ok
Should I understand , maybe, that A.C. even the worst sinners go to heaven ?

The true story is different of course
I definitly understand yours and liberal Christians' embarassement
A 1 year old baby must go to hell ( or at least to limbo ) just because he died before a priest poured some water on his head...
The point is that you can not twist the Bible to meet your personal tastes