You guys do NOT make this easy -- MMP Part 1: Advertising

(Part 1 and Part 2 are related. I'm only doing this at JCL's request.)

Hello Conitec,

I've put a lot of thought and time into this post... some might say 5 years worth of time.

I asked the community what they thought of your advertising this engine as MMOG capable and in general what is their opinion of GS Networking. Here are some of their replies:


Quote:
But , I agree , that we should all ask...or maby , demand (dunno if we have that right) that Conitec finishes 3DGS's MP and MMO capabilities. This should , in theory , be their main focus , because the future of gaming isnt single player...Even cell phones already have MMO games. :|
Why shouldnt we be able to create MMO games ?





Quote:
If I sold something and said it could do (INSERT EXCITING THING HERE), and really within a 10 year period nobody could actually do the (INSERT EXCITING THING HERE), then I'm sure people would be mad.



Quote:
If I could I'd set up a law suit demanding either:
A) Conitec to prove it's MP is capable of 1000's of players
-or-
B) Remove all claims off their site



And my personal quotes:

-After 5 years of dedicating myself to MMOG, I am still unable to create a product that is stable and publishable. You can blame my code all you want, but the things like "incompatible version" cropping up from who knows which server all the time is not our fault. Things like anyone being able to create a dummy program, anyone being able to connect to our system without us preventing it, and then injecting false data into our system and crashing our servers is not our fault... as a matter of fact it's not Gliders fault either and that was years ago and it's still not resolved!

-Several other members have attempted to create MP and MMP solutions with the engine and failed. Or rather, the engine failed them...

-I am not alone in my dissatisfaction with networking. At one point, network fixes on the forecast had an actual priority. Now they are lumped together with other junk (EDIT: I notice that on Aug 15, encryption and encapsultioan are RDY? I am SO confused as to what you guys are doing with Networking and it's still piecemeal changes on a sunset (DPLAY) engine! Do you think throwing us a random bone our of the blue every fews years qualifies as supporting your network engine? I don't. I suspect others won't either.)


4) Finally, can you at least drop MMOG from your features language if you aren't going to do any of the above? (F69: "the above" refers to updating the Network engine) It's a lie and one that many people are buying into the engine and then realizing it too late. If you can't do MMOG, which GS CAN'T in it's current state, then you should not HAVE MMOG anywhere on your features page.

We've produced several mplayer programs during the last years. Currently we're in pre-production mode for a new multiplayer title made with gameStudio. I can not confirm such huge "problmes" you mentioned.

On our part, we want also that the Direct-Play part will be replaced by a more stable and faster one like, Rak-Net. For an MMO or other big multiplayer games this should be a must have.

When starting a huge multiplay project you have defentifly to think about the main concept (zones, multiple serves) before starting everything else.

Smaller Multiplayer-Games (1-8 players) are absolutly possible with GameStudio and even with DirectPlay! Perhaps the main problem is, that there is no real mutliplay-template which most users can use...?!

Possible yes. I've created a slew of MP "programs"
But a stable and commercially viable GAME? Not IMO.

Surely Glider 1 taught you that!



This is the entire point to this thread (or actually Part II since JCL made me break these two related points up into two threads).

A) There are no MMOGs created with DPLAY outside of GS.
B) DPLAY is sunset so there will be NO MMOGs created with DPLAY outside of GS EVER.
C) There are no MMOGs created with DPLAY inside of GS.
D) GS's native Net architecture makes it impossible to create a MMOG EVER.

So if no MMOGs have been created outside using DPLAY, no MMOGs have been created inside using DPLAY, then how exactly can Conitec advertise this engine as "mmog capable"???

And thus all I want is what you state in your quote: if you want to keep advertising GS as "mmog capable", replace the net engine to a PROVEN MMOG ENGINE.

To not ruin the technical thread about MMOG, I decided to post this here.

The multiplayer aspect is by no means more important than all the other features standing on the forecast for ages. You can do multiplayer just fine using plugins or other means of extensions. Some people here think it should also be possible without, and even supported with c-script only. Well then it's fine to think like that, but not totaly nessecary to develop a good functioning MMOG. It really is possible, just perhaps not with native functions, but the advertisements never stated it was achieveable using only the native functionality. You can extend it at will.

Said that, most users don't care about MMOG development, they have a hard time finishing a normal game already with the current given functionality.

Perhaps you don't use the multiplayer capabilities of 3dgs, but a lot of people intend to do so using the native capabilities. Nowadays games, and I do not even mean to compete with AAA games really, easily have 12 vs. 12 players in multiplayer or much more. That's something I never got to work with 3dgs. 24 players in total isn't MMO, but if there would be a more optimized / better multiplayer functionality in 3dgs, I would have continued my multiplayer projects.

Most of the current projects have no multiplayer at all.

Also, despite being able to extend the engine to whatever you'd want, it is suggested on the main site to be part of the (native) features.

Apparently, it's difficult to use in practice for the really big multiplayer projects... the MMO kind of things.

I do not have any experience with such projects though, but I can say I had a difficult time with multiplayer of 3dgs even with small to medium sized projects.

In general though I always assume(d) to be the culprit myself and not the engine, as my coding skills aren't the best.



Same goes for everything on the forecast page, so it's a bit of a non-argument if you ask me. I do agree with you for the most part though.

Of course everyone has had problems with multiplayer. I too have done multiplayer. I created a chat and some small game for 2 players. Worked great. Never tried more because I don't have the people to test more, but I don't think it's all that hard to create a 24 player game with GSTNet or raknet, or even create your own plugin. I found a good network tutorial, and I'm sure there are more. As I said, advertisement of gamestudio never stated it was all possible with only the native functions. It just stated that it is possible. Whether you think that's a lame argument or not has not much to do with marketing .

No, most of the forecast things are not available in plugins, but multiplayer most certainly is. Nsf42 made GSTNet, and you get alot further with it than the native functions. A browser plugin, on the other hand, is not publicly available at all.

Which is exaclty my point... if the best or only solution is OUTSIDE the engine, don't IMPLY that there is a solution INSIDE the engine.

Yes, but was it implied? Strictly spoken I can't find anything stating clearly that you can achieve creating an MMOG using only 3dgs functions. You'd definately need a database at first, so you will need to make use of plugins already. The fact that you cán use plugins for enhancing your development makes it possible to create a MMOG. The engine just helps you rendering everything, and it's being a big help there.

I too would have loved it when 3dgs supported database connections and more than only directplay, but marketing or advertising-wise, they did nothing wrong. It's what every company does to sell it's product.

I'll tell you what, Joozey.
The advertising is not even a concern for me anymore. Honestly, it was partially my feeling about the message GS puts out but I see now that it is open to wide interpretation of which mine is but one... and partially a shock tactics to get attention to this issue.

I am now more focused on the other thread whereupon we are trying to convince Conitec what everyone in the gaming world knows: DPLAY is dead and so is any MP game based on it.

Let's try this:

Fresh start: GS Networking discussion

Try it for yourself, try to use multiple zones, try adding more than about 10-20 players... really, it's not as easy as you think it is.

I never said it's impossible with 3dgs, but I gave up on multiplayer at least for now. You can blame my scripting/coding skills, but that's only a part of the issue, as the actual coding is not the problem. Optimizing things and so on is!



Well to be honest with you, yes I do think that's a very lame statement indeed. I also think it's pointless to mention how 'virtually everything is possible' as long as you extend the engine through plug-ins, external tools and what not... as that's obviously not the point here.



...and your point is what? That not all those plug-ins for features we the users would like to see in 3dgs are made yet or made publicly available or that we must be satisfied and not complain because there are plug-ins that provides multiplayer capabilities besides the native functions of 3dgs?

Again it's totally not the point here. I for one would like to just use the native functions (as advertised imho) and somehow I think it's only fair to expect them to work better when used in actual games.



Well, there definitely was a plug-in in development, but I don't know whether it's still work in progress, finished or abandoned by now.